So two nights ago I tried an idea I’ve been rolling around for a while. Three of my six players were challenged to a 3×3 duel by NPCs. I let my other three players play the NPCs making it a PvP (player versus player) session. I gave each NPC some warrior-esque moves. Everyone loved it. It really forced my players to learn and use their class moves in creative ways. But also it kept all the players participating, which is sometimes difficult with large groups.
Another thing we learned was that it is fairly hard to adjudicate between players what tags like “messy” “forceful” and “awkward” mean when their fighting each other. So we placed exact meanings on each of them.
Messy = on a hit, the victim loses 1 armor or takes a disability.
Forceful = on a hit, the victim takes a knee (-1 forward for them)
Awkward = on a miss, an ally is struck.
I assume this lack of concrete direction in terms of many DW rules is the major complaint people have in regards to DW lacking PvP. As well as things like my paladin trying to use voice of authority on the player controlled NPCs he’s fighting…
Has anyone else had to do anything like this?
I’m not sure that’s the issue with DW and pvp play. Apocalypse World has similarly undefined (or fictionally-defined if you prefer) tags, and AW does just fine with pvp. DW is built around the idea of a party, like the D&D games it’s built on. AW…isn’t.
There’s a really nice Messy table that I have that I can post later. I forget who originally came up with it but it was not my work.
I prefer fiction like launching the player back or killing part of their gear or getting stuck at bad times. Mechanical effects are nice but static.
Furthermore I love to switch things up by temporary control of other NPCs (flashbacks to an event involving an important character)
PvP
The duel idea is intriguing. PvP is a interesting endeavor in DW, and deserves mindful attention to the escalation of moves. It also calls us to be very mindful of the agenda – the players are all compelled to be a fan of the characters. If i’m playing Axle and you’re playing Brandy, we are supposed to attack one another in the fiction, while as players being a fan of both characters. If Brandy scores a big hit against Axle, that is part of the fun, for both of us. But too often, players get attached to seeing just one character win, and things go sour.
NPC Spotlighting
I don’t like the idea of putting some players into NPCs for the scene. that further splits them from the idea of being a fan of the PCs by asking them to be a fan and strive to win as an NPCs. That’s not really difficult (it’s what the GM is always doing) – but it requires mindful attention to the agenda.
We also have the issue of taking the spotlight completely from the characters of the players currently on NPCs, and then asking them to make these NPCs stand in bright spotlight. We start treading slippery ground regarding the role of NPCs/monsters in the fiction.
I think that folks complaining about the lack of concrete direction in terms of DW rules generally don’t appreciate that play style and how it carries into PvP (whether the lack of appreciation is because they don’t understand it, or they understand it and don’t care for it – also on the table, maybe i don’t understand it, and i’m wrong!).
TAGS
I’m really against the idea of adding mechanical meanings on fictional tags. it is specifically contrary to the point of tags.
It can be difficult to adjudicate the results of moves, and to interpret fictional tags on the fly. but the way to do it is to do it. With practice, it gets easier. Your past efforts build into experience, your creative juices flow, and your synapses fly.
Dumping all of that creativity to simply turn “messy” into knocking off an armor or assigning a disability undermines the fun of the game, as i understand it.
Andrew Fish About NPC spotlight
I’ve only done NPC control for The Fighter’s heirloom spirit inside his signature weapon.
A vision of the spirit’s flashbacks came to the Fighter in his sleep. Instead of just narrating a incredibly important and exciting event passively, I asked my two players “please put aside your character sheets” and gave them Important NPCs who had connections to the player, great power, and presence in a time long past.
They got completely new gear, special character custom moves, and got a fun taste of the world of the past being able to interact with historical names they have heard as their own characters. In this case I feel NPC spotlight is more fun a bit more than a mini encounter with NPCs connected to the world rather than the characters.
What do you think?
Samuel Bogumill – i like that idea.
In this example, you’re not putting NPCs on par with the PCs, you’re simply stepping back and telling a different tale altogether, and then entwining that tale into the ongoing story.
Especially if you were “playing to find out what happen(ed)” during that backstory, instead of trying to get to a foregone outcome, and being a fan of those historical characters, i’d actually suggest you were simply playing a separate set of PCs using custom playbooks.
But even if the historical play was simply to establish or reveal some element for The Fighter, i think your method is a lot more fun and effective than writing up a back story and reading it aloud or giving the players homework.
Thanks for all the responses guys!
NPC SPOTLIGHT
Samuel Bogumill Your example is awesome! One of my players and I have a side campaign where we play two characters together (taking turns GMing) and we just found one of their graves in our main campaign.
TAGS
Andrew Fish And I understand what people are saying when they talk about tags becoming restrictive if they are given clearly defined mechanics.
But when my fighter attacks my barbarian (and we are all technically GMs, so we like to all be in agreement about the mechanics of the game.) and my barbarian has “messy” and “forceful” it becomes more difficult. My barbarian will want every hit to knock my fighter on the ground and rip a piece of him off. My fighter will want all the barbarians hits to only have fictional effects that let him keep fighting. And if the barbarian does a messy/forceful hit that only results in 2 damage, my fighter will wonder why his 14 damage hit was not “messy” or “forceful.”
PVP
Noah Tucker So just to clarify, how is the game mechanic anchored around the party? Because some of the advanced moves involve multiple characters? (Perilous Journey) Or because, like I said, some characters moves explicitly do not work on PCs, only NPCs?
Sir Savage I meant that D&D has always been a party-based game. Not mechanically, but that’s how the game was always built. You and your friends roll up a party of adventurers and go find some loot.
Sir Savage – The player of The Fighter isn’t wrong that the fictional effect shouldn’t take them out of the game. That is the mechanism of HP.
Most tags make for great fictional effects which then spawn new opportunities for moves, or color to subsequent moves.
Depending on the fictional position left after resolving a tag, the character may need to move, to overcome some new obstacle, or change tactics. [Messy] might have blinded an eye, broken a bone, snipped off a fleshy bit, or spilled some gore around the scene that makes footing or grip precarious. [Forceful] may have thrown you off your feet, through a door, or knocked your weapon from your hands. You can definitely still act, but your situation has changed. What Do You Do?
And if The Barbarian fails a roll, [Messy] and [Forceful] can describe how their wild attacks have put THEM at a disadvantage – did they smash through a support beam and now the ceiling is buckling? Did they over-commit and when their attack missed they came off-balance, open to counter attack?
It’s also important to keep the tags separate from inflicting HP damage. A non-messy 14 HP hit bites deep, and maybe it causes some blood flow. But the 2 HP messy hit cuts an artery and removes a chunk of meat, and the spray is truly gruesome. The gore becomes an environmental thing, something to deal with as you try to keep your footing and grip.
Just because a weapon lacks the tag doesn’t mean it’s results can never be forceful and messy, it’s just not a guarantee.
I non-messy sword dealing 10 damage hacking of a limb is a totally valid call.
Doctor Starky i’d agree. But i don’t think that the non-messy sword should necessarily hack off the arm because of 10 damage as much as if the roll on the H&S was 10+.
To make the tags meaningful, weapons tagged as [Messy] should generally (not always, but usually) cause a mess that changes the fictional positioning in the scene and weapons that lack this tag can cause narrative gore, but generally (but sometimes can) change the fictional positioning through a messy effect.
Andrew Fish So what I’m hearing you say is that a tag effects the fiction. How that plays out in competitive (or pseudo-competitive) play is forcing extra moves? So lets say the fighter cannot Hack & Slash because first he has to Defy Danger to pick himself up off the ground (from a forceful blow) with the distinguishing factor for you, for when a tag applies and when it does not, is the degree of success, over or under 10…?