Originally posted by Scott McCafferty in https://plus.google.com/103304478024811313124/posts/WXyXsHDeiAp:
I’ve been building a campaign world for rather a while. Basic settings, gods, backstory, big world changing thing that’s just recently occurred and will explain all manner of strange occurrences.
Here’s my trouble. DW has a really low level cap, and if things go well, these guys might be playing this campaign for a WHILE. How do(would) you folks deal with this? Retire PC’s in exchange for new meat? Inflate the levels so it takes longer to level up? Stop giving xp for things like fulfilled bonds? What?
I want to have this discussion because I’ve been loving DW so far and would like to write up an adventure setting but have been concerned about the balance between prep and play-to-find-out. Obviously, GMs will make their own choices and each group differs but I would like to get a conversation going about how people would feel these kind of resources should be laid out and how to deal with long-term play.
Christopher Stone-Bush posted this, which I think is invaluable:
As characters get better there is more they can do without triggering moves. That might slow down the level progression a bit.
Anyone coming from past experience with campaign play in level-based systems will have this “vestigial” concept of level-progression and balance. DW really only uses the “level” framework as an homage to D&D. It could have been handled differently, it can still be changed to work differently. For example, instead of levels, characters might only get advanced moves as training, from a mentor, or boons from a deity through questing. What Christopher Stone-Bush is saying is that the level of the character is only important if the fiction suggests there’s a chance of failure. As they get better and better, a lot of the things they used to do should really be automatic (as long as the context remains the same), so they don’t require the roll. This is the real way for players to feel their characters become more “epic”, that and the weirder and more complex challenges they face, and, I feel, what’s missing from many level-based progressions where the difference is a percentage on a die roll.
Just to further that thought about long-term play. Assume the group starts encountering kobolds early on in their campaign. Let’s assume the initial encounters paint a pack of kobolds as a real thread, requiring care, Defy Danger, Volley, and Hack and Slash.
Mid-campaign, the “same” encounter “should” be shrugged off. Javelins are dodged absentmindedly, daggers turned aside, multiple kobold attacks felled with a single stroke, the pack routed as an afterthought. Possibly, this doesn’t require any rolls or possibly one roll for each player. In either case, the characters no longer consider them a threat, “Ho ho ho, these tiny beasts are no match for our prowess!”
Later in the campaign, however, Tucker’s Kobolds enter (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/).
This is just reiterating Christopher Stone-Bush’s idea of the fiction leading the rolls.
Yup. That is precisely what I was saying Ari Black. Levels don’t solely define how powerful characters are in DW. At least not mechanically. As characters improve they can fictionally accomplish more without the need to roll, meaning fewer failures and therefore less XP.
As I said in the original thread though, that’s speculation on my part.My campaigns have all been short so far.
I like my DW a little more gritty. I offer my players the chance to “retire to safety” at higher levels to make the PC a more permanent and powerful fixture in the local scene, or however else they want to define it. I have also tried to start the game with the core playbooks and only on a persons second character do we start looking at stranger things I have picked up on DriveThru or here. This makes them want to either die or retire at some point to try out that cool new class they saw.
Casey McKenzie This goes well with the DW manual’s suggestion that players whose character has died should make a new character from a hireling who happens to be around.
You could almost plan for your character’s retirement by having them take on an “apprentice” that they play once their current reaches 10.
Converted a very long running (2+ yrs) campaign from Pathfinder to DW. Came into DW at level 8 using Class Warfare custom classes for everyone. We stopped increasing stats at level 10 so we didn’t just max everything out but as far as I have seen, it doesn’t break anything to keep leveling up past 10 and keep learning new Moves/Specialties. Which is the great thing about DW – there’s very little inflation. You don’t get bigger numbers, you just get more options, so you don’t run into “problems with scaling” like people trip on in D20 systems.
My kneejerk reaction to starting DW at Level 8 is “Yeesh!” How did that work out for you Marshall Brengle? Were you new players?
We had all played DW before in various one offs and liked it, so we took a stab at converting our main campaign (everyone was level 10+ in PF), and it’s been glorious and we’ve never looked back. Thanks to aforementioned lack of inflation, the maths are way easier, therefore the game goes way faster, and we focus more on story and less on grinding every last HP out of “mobs.” Level 8 is really not that different from level 1, you mostly just have more tricks up your sleeve. A key stat or two might be tricked out a bit more but it wasn’t a huge story shift in terms of character capabilities, and there’s still plenty of fails and fail forwards. Overall super fun for PCs and GM (me), so yea I would say DW holds up plenty well to long term campaigns where the characters grow from meandering sellsword to landed gentry, apprentice to archmage, and pickpocket to head of the thieves’ guild.
Fantastic! Marshall, it makes me very happy to hear you say that.
Re: worldbuilding – My group has experience with 4e, but with one exception (our usual GM) tend to be a bit reticent about making decisions or really diving into character. I’ve given them a world to play in (or the basics of one) so that they can avoid the paralyzing uncertainty of a giant sandbox while also learning a brand new system.
We routinely start one offs at level three.
If everyone likes it we convert it to a campaign and play it a while until everybody dies or it runs out of steam. At our last game night 12 people showed up. The previous game night was 2 months before so nobody could remember what had happened. We ran 2 tables zero prep, with collaborative world building. There is a chance that the one table’s game will turn into a campaign.
Why do I tell you this?
In Pathfinder getting to level 7 is a grind. You don’t get to be anything close to awesome off the bat. You work for it. After months of playing defensively and min maxing just to stay alive, you are so emotionally invested in your character you that hang on to it for dear life. So you play it until it is level 3001, because, heaven forbid, you do not want to be first level again.
In Dungeon World, you are born awesome. Period. If you are a Druid, you turn into a sperm whale on your first day of adventuring. If you are a wizard you ban Chtulhu to the dungeon dimensions with your very first ritual.
In DW you get 20 levels of Pathfinder awesomeness in one night.
So you don’t get so emotionally dependent on one character. If he dies, then good, he lived an awesome, if short, life. You wanted to try being a Barbarian or some obscure Jacob Randolph character anyway.
Our group are mostly DW-only players. Only about two or three played any other tabletop RPG ever. If you told them they had to play one character for a year, they would be like, “Seriously, dude?”
I’ve definitely noticed that characters level up a bit fast for my taste in DW, especially if you play relatively short sessions and/or have a group prone to fiascos. Between alignment, bonds, and the end-of-session questions, you end up with 3-5 XP per session, plus XP from misses. That adds up quickly. I’ve seen characters at level 7 after two adventures, and that feels weird.
For #Stonetop , I’m going for a longer burn. To that effect, I’m making these changes:
– Level+12 XP required to level
– Days or weeks of downtime required trigger Level Up
– A Burning Bright move: when you have more XP than you need to level, you can spend 2 XP to add +1 to a roll you just made.
The idea is that you only level up between adventures, and the Burning Bright prevents “banking” so much XP that you can double-level.
Great ideas, Jeremy. I LOVE the idea of “Burning Bright” but do you find that such a move might have a negative impact on immersion? It reads as very meta, in that it’s a decision made by the player, not the character.
The 12+lvl for lvl up is fantastic as well. I’ve been looking at similar solutions, either reducing XP in, or entirely removing it from certain places (Are we confident that the game really REQUIRES XP on a miss?)
I haven’t had a chance to play with Burning Bright yet, so I can’t tell you how well it actually works. Meta-wise… yeah, it sticks out from the rest of the mechanics a little. But I’m not worried about it.
I wouldn’t consider removing XP-on-a-miss from DW, not without a much, much deeper hacking of the game. It adds a ton of value in play.
Wynand Louw I would like the next printing of DW to have this slogan emblazoned on the cover: Live an awesome, if short, life.
I’m just not a fan of spending XP for a minor effect. Part of the reason I detest Numenera.
Christopher Stone-Bush Yes, this is a blatant attempt to “narrative out” the meta aspect of Jeremy Strandberg’s Burning Bright.
Moment of Inspiration
When you inspire confidence in your allies by describing a brilliant plan or taking an especially heroic action, spend # XP and roll+#. * On 10+, you and your allies take +1 Forward. * On 7-9, your allies take +1 Forward.
I like that better Ari Black, but I’m still not really a fan of spending XP as I said. But I won’t beat that into the ground. What about taking an idea from the Cortex Plus game Leverage?
In Leverage, when you finish a mission you add the title of the job to your sheet. Like “The Dragon Slaying Job” or “The Prince Rescue Job”. During play you can reference one of these previous jobs to gain a bonus, called a callback. You describe how your character did something in or learned something from the past job and why it helps you now. It’s a small, temporary effect, and you can only reference each job once per mission.
You can also spend jobs to get a permanent bonus, similar to levelling up. You cross the job’s title off your sheet and can no longer use it for callbacks.
I think you could do something similar in DW. At the end of the session, determine if your character did something particularly noteworthy or awesome. If so, write it down as a flavorful sentence or phrase. During play, you can reference these callbacks to get a +1 to a similar or related action. Or you can spend these past actions as XP by permanently crossing them off.
This probably needs some refinement, but I like the balance between temporary bonus if kept/permanent bonus if spent idea here.
Christopher Stone-Bush so you hate FATE?
No. Why do you ask Wynand Louw?
Christopher Stone-Bush
In your one post it just seemed that you did not like the idea of spending points for +1s. I read your later post after posting the question. ☺
Christopher Stone-Bush I like this idea. On top of whatever goal/loot/magical item you gain from an adventure, you also get a “name” from it. Like alignments and races, you get the title and a short narrative description. E.g.
Dragon Slayer
You fear no scaly beast.
You can use that description to get a +1 on related tasks or “resolve” it for XP. Maybe a 3-name limit?
As well, these can also represent word getting around about you.
Villages can herald you as The Dragon Slayer. If you’re a kobold killer, kobolds you encounter can start fleeing when they recognize you.
I specifically don’t like spending XP for bonuses Wynand Louw. But I love Fate Points from Fate, Style Points from Ubiquity, and Plot Points from Cortex Plus. (I hate Bennies from Savage Worlds, but that has to do with how they’re earned.)
I was thinking of something inrernal to the character Ari Black. Something like memories they could call upon, but based on events that happened in game so everyone would be on the same page about what situations they could be used in.
But basing the names on things other characters perceive would work just ad well. In that case, I might put a cap on the number you can have at once. But more importantly, the names would have to make fictional sense together.
Christopher Stone-Bush Yeah, I didn’t make that clear enough. I was trying to describe something holistic that would include your idea but also push it out into the game world also. Basically, I wanted to attach a name and related idea to the “awesome thing” that they did once upon a time.
I think this was partially a self-defence response because I’m thinking of one of my players who remembers, with irritating clarity, every amazing thing he ever did ever in the fifteen odd years we’ve been RPing together… ever.
Christopher Stone-Bush & Ari Black — I think the “call on your deeds” idea is pretty sweet, but I don’t think it addresses the issue of levelling too fast.
The point behind Burning Bright is to give you something to spend XP on once you’ve gotten enough to level.
Jeremy Strandberg That’s why I adapted it into Moment of Inspiration.
Ari Black Yup, and I’m definitely rolling that one around. I like the idea of a fictional trigger; I’m not so convinced about the roll & results.
I think the keys to making a move like that work are 1) low handling time and 2) reliability. Spending a hard-earned resource to maybe get a +1 to a roll or some rolls is kinda meh. Spending retroactively to get a +1 is way more reliable, because you only spend it when you know it will matter (on a 6, a 9, or maybe an 11).