If you were in charge of Dungeon World 2nd Edition… Would you add any moves to the basic moves list? Would you change any of the existing basic moves?
If you were in charge of Dungeon World 2nd Edition.
If you were in charge of Dungeon World 2nd Edition.
41 thoughts on “If you were in charge of Dungeon World 2nd Edition.”
Nope and nope. 🙂
I think the main focus would be tweaking the classes and the way alignment works and opening up more race/class combinations.
Maybe including a couple new classes.
andrew ferris Absolutely, I agree. However, for this thread I just wanted to focus on the basic moves.
It is quite possible that no one wants to add, remove or alter any. Still, I feel like someone has something interesting to say on the matter somewhere!!! 🙂
I would change probably both discern realities and spout lore to be worded slightly differently. Probably steal a bit of rules from the Discovery Phase of Swords Without Master to give one of them a more improvisational feel.
At least these:
On a hit the GM will tell you something useful about the topic or situation. On a 10+ the next one acting on that information takes +1 forward.
add this to the options:
Ask the GM a question of your own. If they will answer it, it stands; otherwise, retract it and ask another.
I’d want to get away from hit points, but I have no idea how.
killing hit points will kill the damage die too! And that sacred cow moos so sweetly to me.
Yeah, Spout Lore would involve the player creating the fact, not the GM.
My swm-derived spout lore move:
Declare a fact that your character knows, ask a loaded (but not leading!) question about that fact. The GM can ask you how you learned this fact before answering. On a 10+, the answer is useful and interesting, next person to act on this info gets a +1. On a 7-9, it is just useful and interesting.
Hit points should stand because it works for fantasy and the whole magic healing thing.
I am running a totally mundane Wild West campaign at the moment (second session last nigt) with a hitpointless harm system. It is much more dangerous than a hitpoint system but it was the one part of the rules that everybody agreed seemed to work. If people are interested I can post it.
In a lot of situations, when you would gain hold (discern realities for example) I’d add on a 6- you hold 1 in addition to whatever the GM says.
The Druid’s bloody shapeshift move.
If it didn’t mess with the original “love letter to DnD” idea too much, I’d update the rules for load, wealth and hirelings.
I’d uncouple races from classes and probably replace them with J. Walton ‘s heritage moves. (Or just give everyone the barbarian racial, because it’s awesome.)
I’d include “the 16 HP dragon” in the notes in the back, as well as an adventure starter or two. (Probably The Shallow Sea and I’m on a Boat, for the sake of brevity.)
The Druid’s bloody shapeshift move!
Warrior weapon choices are “bland”. Also, not so gratificating from the “numbers-side”. You can end with choices similar to good standard weapons other classes can have. You should have a bigger starting impact, IMHO.
Also, better guidelines for druid shapeshift.
I’d actually throw in some of the more entertaining utility spells (while trying to avoid caster supremacy, of course)
These I think have a place in the early levels of the game and aren’t replacing any functions of the other classes.
Make clear “Stumble, Hesitate or Flinch” are examples, rather than prescriptions. And using Dex is “Moving quickly, deftly or stealthily”
The maximum range of anything is “Far”, unless otherwise specified.
Make all references to “Allies” consistent.
Make it explicit that all ambiguous terms are for the character to define.
Use more ambiguous terms…
Arcane Art is kind of boring but i don’t know how I would fix it.
Elf move would probably get the spout lore tweak: state one fact about the history of that important location, ask a question about this fact to the gm. no roll, just establishing setting (stating one fact and asking a question will let you at least push the game towards your area of expertise with bardic lore in case the gm forgets about it)
Agreeing that the signature weapon needs work, many bland combinations (also, fists have weight???)
Heist would look better if it was more like the wizard’s Ritual.
If held true and thoughtfully, this has the potential to be one of the better postings in this community.
I could write an essay on this, but I think I’ll just make more DW stuff instead 😉
P.S. Also, any of us could be in charge of the next edition of DW, right? It’s open source!
Veles: I think when the game says ‘fist’ it means more like… katars, punch daggers, spurs, claw gloves, etc.
I upgraded the signature weapon in my version of the fighter with a quite a few things. The original can be pretty boring without a player coming up with a neat back story for it. I also juiced the numbers a bit since they didn’t seem worthy of an advanced move when compared to some options.
One of the things I want to do with the basic moves (the pool from which all characters can draw from) is change each to a one word verb. Then make sure each term is easily and instantly understood for what it does. I know that might seem superfluous but if successful it would make the writing overall cleaner.
I would clear up the text overall, though, honestly.
I would change parley. Somehow. I’m just not 100% thrilled with how it works currently.
Would the move become broken if discern realities allowed you to ask questions not restricted to a list?
The move wouldn’t be interesting anymore. Also you have too many options and then get paralysed thinking about the best possible question. The question list is really important.
Another plus to the questions is that you can write custom moves to modify the questions available, adding new ones.
Matthew Miller we’ve always seen the DR list as guidelines. It works very well because you can adapt it to circumstances. It can be used in the same way as AW Read a sitch. Love it.
That makes absolutely no sense to me.
All the Read a sitch questions can be asked as one of the DR questions. They are wonderfully open ended. So if a PC asks “Who should I attack?” it can fall under at least 3 DR questions.
Fine, I’ve been provoked into responding more 😉
I would remove Hack N Slash / Defend / Volley entirely and replace them with moves that interface with the fiction more deeply. Not sure exactly what this would look like (or I would have written them already), but it would depend on the type of fights I wanted the game to have (don’t quite know yet). HP would be totally gone, I think, since it’s really hard to plug into the fiction. Maybe replaced by conditions or AW-style Harm.
I would keep Defy Danger as a general “saving’s throw” move but add a dodge/sneak move that’s based on Dex. Results could be things like “you’re not where they thought you were” (which works for dodging and sneaking). Trigger would be like: “when you move with grace and speed” or something. Could also be used for attempting to avoid traps, maybe climbing, and maybe making parkour moves.
I would hack Discern Realities and Spout Lore a bit to make them a bit more distinct, not in how they work but in the situations in which you are likely to use them. They are both kinda “get more info about a thing” moves, and I think they could be differentiated more.
Also, I think I would plug the combat/exertion rules more firmly into the rules for rest and using resources (like food and water). If you have a big fight, you need to stop to rest and eat and drink, yeah? Or something else to make that part a bit more toothy. Also maybe moves for light sources, though that’s kinda Torchbearer’s schtick.
But, really, the stuff I’d do the basic moves is mostly relatively minor compared to how much I want to totally overhaul how the GM prep guidelines work (Fronts, etc.). But I’m not necessarily a huge fan of how these work in most AW hacks (including AW), so that’s no surprise 😉
Honestly, the best fix for DR’s question list is to just include a note that if there’s a specific question you want to ask about the situation that isn’t anything like the ones on the list, you can just ask it.
Just tinkering with the basic moves?
Make H&S more versatile, both in it’s inputs and outputs. Something like:
When you attack a foe in melee, make your intent clear and roll +STR. On a 10+, it works as well as can be expected. On a 7-9, it works but with a complication:
-It costs you something (footing, weapon, position, etc.)
-It didn’t have quite the effect you’d hoped (-1d6 damage)
-You exposed yourself to attack or harm
-You cause unwanted harm or danger
If you acted from a position of relative strength or safety, you choose. Otherwise, the GM chooses.
As a few people have suggested, make Spout Lore explicitly about (or least allow & encourage) players making crap up. Make it more explicitly support the principle of “draw maps, leave blanks” and the agenda of “play to find out.”
I’d reword Defy Danger’s 7-9 results. Ideally there would always be a player choice involved and the GM would be given clearer guidance. Something like “The GM will offer you a choice of consequence, cost, or limitation (one of which might be failing to act).”
I’d force the player to ask a question before rolling Discern Realities. On a hit the GM answers, on a 10+ the player can ask more questions (probably with a hold mechanic rather than making them ask all at once). Probably tinker with the questions, maybe add an “other question if the GM allows it” option, per Tim Franzke’s suggestion. Clarify how that +1 forward works (do you get it for each question? just once, but for acting on any question?)
J. Walton and let the edition wars begin!
Jeremy Strandberg I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Jeremy Strandberg I like a lot of what you said there, sir. I reeaally like ‘If you acted from a position of relative strength or safety, you choose. Otherwise, the GM chooses.’ This could be the start of a revolution!!!
One of the things I would do to the basic moves (which would roll over into all moves) is add a critical hit tier at 13+.
I know there are moves that add stuff to 12+ and I would just add some of those into the moves they modify.
Does anyone have anything to say about basic move terminology? If you could change hack and slash, volley, spout lore, discern realities and parley to something else… what would it be?
What’s your reasoning with adding a crit tier? Like, what’s your design goal for adding it? What are you hoping to emulate, prompt or provoke at the game table?
I like the class-specific ones (like SMASH) because they emphasize something about that kind of character. I’d be leary of adding them to every basic move just to add them.
In AW, players can spend advances to unlock “advanced moves” that essentially give you a 12+ crit result on certain existing moves. That model isn’t bad, but it is a bit weird to buy a crit for a move with XP when you may never roll a 12+ when using it. AW fixes this by having you open multple “advanced moves” at once, but that feels weird too, since I think they work better when characters can only crit at a few special, maybe class-specific things rather than every possible roll.
It might be cool to shift a whole category down with an XP advance? Like, “When you Defy Danger with Strength, treat a 10+ as crit (with rules for what that means), 7-9 as a 10+, and 6- as a 7-9.”
The awesomeness of rolling box cars is diminished slightly when it is no different from rolling a five+four. (assuming a bonus 1 to the roll given that my crit range is 13+) A minor quibble… but really, the inclusion of advanced moves that only do things on a 12+ lead me to this want.
I wrote the crits for basic moves to be very simple with the intention of including advanced moves that give them more juice in the fiction. For instance, a crit Defend is just hold 4. Nice but not mind-boggling or game-breaking. 🙂
I feel you, but I don’t know that it’s enough reason to add an extra line of text or two to every basic move.
You could have a more general move that a natural 12 always carries some additional benefit of the GM’s choice: a piece of information, max damage, a +1 forward, or an extra 1 hold. That lets the DM tailor the awesomeness to the situation and doesn’t make any of the moves inherently more complicated.
You might be right, sir. 🙂 I’ll have to see how it all pans out… a general crit move sounds pretty good.
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