So what I want to discuss today comes from Final Fantasy XV. There are actually TWO things about the game that I’m toying around with for DW. I’ll talk about the first today.
This is something that I thought I would hate, but after playing for about 30 hours it has become something a really enjoy, and I’ll tell you why at the end. Experience in FFXV works the same as it does in DW. You accrue it while you fight enemies, complete quests, etc., but you don’t apply it until you Make Camp. And it’s LITERALLY Make Camp… you go to a camping spot and set up a Coleman tent. Doing so applies your accrued XP to your total, and allows you to level.
Doing this at a campsite gives you 1X experience. But there are several spots that allow you to pay money for a better, safer, and/or more comfortable evening. You can pay 30 gil to sleep in a camper, and gain 1.2X experience. A stay in a roadside hotel will give you 1.5X experience, at a cost of 300 gil. A nice, beachside hotel with a spa costs 10,000 gil, and grants 2X experience. A place I haven’t seen in game yet (but have seen a video for) grants 3X experience, for only (ONLY!! lol) 300,000 gil. I’m sure there are more variants that I don’t know about as well.
I like this, but these numbers are obviously WAY out of sinc for DW. And with so many people talking about how quickly you level initially (after 2 sessions with my Cleric I’m one point away from level 3), I don’t know if this is even something that should be considered for DW.
BUT what I like about it so much is that there are several times when I may want to camp and rest, but I have a lot of XP and decide to keep trudging on and wait to get to one of the “good” places to camp.
For DW I’ve considered doing regular XP for camping, + 1 XP for staying on a hotel, and + 3 XP for staying in REALLY nice hotels, with a cost of some sort associated with the XP. What are your thoughts?
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The important thing is to avoid metagaming, right? The characters would just make camp and have no concept of XP. If more comfortable accommodations are nearby, then it makes sense to offer the additional experience at a cost like you stated (which might not be money). But definitely don’t have a multiplier or anything that will encourage more metagaming of when to camp (people already do, of course). If you find this happening I’d say threaten -1 ongoing if they don’t rest.
I don’t think “avoid metagaming” is what you want in a game. Instead you want the mechanics to align with the fiction – so optimal choices (aka “metagaming”) match something desired in the story of the game itself.
Is the game about going from lowly station to high station? Do they struggle with wealth? Then yeah, getting additional xp for staying in finery sounds awesome, because the optimal choice for the game is also an interesting choice in the fiction.
Adding onto what Aaron said, XP is commonly used as a carrot to encourage types of behavior. When you want to encourage the PCs on a certain course of action, offer them XP if they do it.
With regards to the OP, a simpler way of accomplishing your goal would be to change or add to the end-of-session questions, something like, “Did we spend X amount of wealth on our lifestyle?”
My understanding is that metagaming can be defined as making a choice for a mechanical benefit in spite of the fiction. That is what I meant.
Peter J I like that. That’s a really elegant way to do it, and AW has a something about spending resources for lifestyle doesn’t it?
Phillip Wessels, I’m not arguing here, just commenting… If you followed that line of thinking wouldn’t the XP gained for Bonds, Alignment and End of Session be metagaming? Those things encourage you to play a certain way for a mechanical (in this case XP) benefit.
This can be weaved into the fiction as well, because what I’m talking about actually has a steeper cost, as resting allows you to heal, commune, prepare spells, etc. It offers a fictional choice. Heal and prepare spells now, or wait a little longer (with lower health and fewer spells) to rest in a nicer place and gain a little more XP.
Brian Holland The end of session move giving XP for bonds/alignment is not metagaming. Bonds/assignment push the fiction. The XP can be a carrot on a stick but it’s not taking you off the path.
If someone doesn’t rest just because they want more XP and they just keep on playing as usual there is no pushing the fiction there, no justification in the story at all. It actually doesn’t make sense in the eye of the character. In this case the carrot on a stick is veering off-road. That is metagaming. It would be like making camp in a dangerous situation just to heal and level up, without justifying it in the fiction.
There is the way it gives the GM a golden opportunity, but it’s still nonsense in the fiction.
Mind you that I don’t think the idea of a bonus for more comfortable rest is bad at all; I like it actually! I am just wary of an implementation that doesn’t push the fiction.
Why would it not push the fiction? Like imagine the characters are deep in some dungeon, and they say “shit guys, we need to get back to town. I need a bath and a massage at L’Hotell! Oh and their cakes!”
Brian Holland maybe back up and what sort of behavior (in fiction and/or player level) that you’re hoping to prompt with a such a change. Do want to encourage…
Spending coin on “frivolity?”
PCs caring about their comfort and lifestyle?
PCs leaving the dungeon/going back to town more often?
Something else?
Depending on your answer, there might be better (more elegant, more effective, more aesthetically pleasing, more broadly applicable, less disruptive) ways to do it than just mimicking FFXV’s approach.
Design with intent!
Aaron Griffin So the characters just want to ditch what they are doing deep in the dungeon to get pampered? There’s a motive sure, but it’s not the stuff of heroes. I still think this would be the carrot on a stick leading the players off-road…
Now if they are done in the dungeon and aren’t in desperate need of rest and can actually make it back to town fine, then sure why not.
As a side note, I’d totally love a custom move for when players retreat from danger.
I don’t recall DW specifying what “the stuff of heroes” is anywhere, or that that was a required motive of the characters.
Phillip Wessels, I understand what you’re saying, and it goes along with what Jeremy Strandberg is saying about design with intent. I’ll be honest, I was really just looking for a cool way to mimick the mechanic in FFXV! So more thought is required, and that’s exactly why I love this community!
And I love what Aaron Griffin said! Don’t you think Merry and Pippin would MUCH rather be in the Shire for second breakfast?
So, within the context of DW, what would be a good way to handle this? I don’t like the idea of spending on frivolity (BUT maybe that’s the kind of world my players build).
I do like the idea of comfort and lifestyle, but maybe my players wouldn’t care about that.
Perhaps it’s something I decide after the first session with a particular play group?
Phillip Wessels, regarding your comment about the pampering… I drive from my home in Tennessee to my brothers home in Wisconsin at least once a year. It’s a 12 hour drive and every single time I do it I start thinking that I’ll stop to relax for a bit in Chicago. I never do, because I’d rather just get to his house, drink his beer, sit in a comfy chair, and hug my nephews. It’s the same thing (but different LOL).
The way AW handles lifestyle is you just subtract some amount of cash at hand at the beginning of each session – this handwaves all normal expenses for luxuries, allowing the player to describe it as they wish.
You could do similar: At the beginning of session, you must pay for your lifestyle. If you pay X coin, you live in luxury – have fine tents and rations, stay at the best hotels, and sometimes have servants. If you pay Y coin, you have a normal life like everyone else – staying and eating in common rooms, sometimes sleeping under the stars while eating hardtack. If you refuse to pay coin, you get by on what you can scrounge or pay for in the moment – tell the GM how you keep yourself alive, or ask another character to pay for you.
Then add some follow up moves based on this: maybe X lifestyle nets you 10 rations per session, Y nets you 5, and no coin nets you 1 ration of cart-crushed rat. You can slap your xp modifiers on there too.
Aaron Griffin I think the player characters pressing on in the darkness (the stuff of heroes, though the PCs may not be heroes) is part of the authorial intent of DW. It is enshrined somewhat in the GM’s agenda.
I can imagine a DW GM being frustrated if the players didn’t want to adventure anymore and instead play house. Especially so if it was just for a mechanical benefit.
Just because they decide to leave the dungeon to go take a hot bath doesn’t mean the adventure ends. When they miss a roll on the way to the bath house, or look to you to see what happens, they stumble on to a nest of wyverns. Now, fictionally, they’ll have earned that bonus XP when they soak their feet and eat the cakes!
Phillip Wessels The GM’s agendas are: Portray a fantastic world (a fine hotel could easily do that – the magical soaps of Ezkal Hotel can clean you of disease and sin!), Fill the characters’ lives with adventure (it’s doesn’t say where – too bad, the Ezkal Hotel is closed; there is something wrong with the water! Patrons have died!), Play to find out what happens (as in: follow what they want to do, like leaving a dungeon to find a life of luxury).
If the DW GM is getting frustrated because the characters are not following the plot they expected them to follow, then perhaps they should choose another game that does not encourage “play to find out”?
Edit: You also mention the characters pressing on is part of the GM’s agenda? That’s not how this works. The players have authority over the characters, not the GM. The GM has no agendas or principles that dictate how the characters are intended to behave.
I’ll have to consult my book when I get home but don’t the authors describe the intent of the agendas more? The SRD implies what I was stating.
Adventures springing off the player retreat is along the lines of what I was stating about it presenting a golden opportunity but still being a bit silly. It’s somewhat of a tone discussion at this point. Yes the story goes on, but it’s a different kind of story now. And while the game isn’t on rails and you do play to find out, the GM is still trying to create an adventure and develop threats. You don’t want to incentivize walking away from them.
Phillip Wessels This is for you!
Run Away!
When your party decides to retreat, determine who is the leader. When the leader uses their talents to help everyone escape, they describe how they do it and roll+STAT. On a 10+ you get everyone clear of danger, no worse for wear. On a 7-9 choose two:
– You escape without further injury
– Your party does not get separated
– You don’t leave anything valuable behind
Take a -1 to your roll for each member of your party who is over their max load or who currently has an injury or debility that would hinder your retreat.
With this move, you could have the fighter lead the way to escape a goblin war band that is raining arrows on the party. He could Run Away with his STR to lift a large chunk of the broken wagon and use it to shield the party from the arrows. If he gets a 7-9, he could choose to not separate the party, since they are all under the chunk of wagon, and not leave anything valuable behind since he is good aligned and doesn’t want the princess they were escorting to get left. The GM could say he suffered the Weak debility afterwards from straining his back (He didn’t choose to escape without further injury).
The Wizard could Run Away with INT to know just where on the tree to fire his magic missiles in order for it to topple and form a bridge across the canyon so they can escape the Hydra, who will be too large to cross without it collapsing. She might choose to escape without further injury and not to leave anything valuable behind (she doesn’t want to lose that arcane artifact she found in the Hydra’s lair). The GM could then say that one or more of the party members end up getting caught out on the log when the Hydra tries to shamble across, causing the tree to split and the Hydra and unfortunate party members go plummeting into the river below!
I’m so glad you mentioned wanting to see a move for escaping danger, or else I wouldn’t have thought of it. Now I want to use it in my games really bad!
I think I’ll definitely use it. I typically just have players use DD with DEX to run away, or someone users Defend while the rest of the party retreats.
Scott Selvidge so good. Maybe reconsider the 7-9 consequences though. This is along the lines of what I was thinking:
On a 7-9, you can do it, but (choose 1):
-you lose the ground you’ve gained
-you lose an opportunity for a specific treasure
-you give opportunity to a threat