So guys, gals, and folks of non-binary gender persuasions I’ve been looking for feedback on a custom class I’ve been developing for a player who was utterly in love with the Binder class from 3.5 and who is interested in joining a DW game that I may be starting up in the near future.
My inspirations for the DW Binder are a combination of the Goetic rites you see in the Lesser Key of Solomon, the freaky unnatural spirits detailed in 3.5’s treatment of Binders, a dash of lovecraft, and then a general seasoning of “caller up of dark and dangerous entities”. Distinct from the wizard in that the Binder’s power is very much externalized, and distinct from the Warlock in that the Binder gains power from control, whereas the Warlock gains power from surrender.
Let me know what you think. Of the moves, of the class in general, of it’s power level compared to the other classes, how fun it seems it’d be to play, and it’s thematic consistency. Also, if anyone wishes to assist me in writing a pithy introductory paragraph for the Binder, that would be most appreciated.
tips hat for the non-cis nod
I love what I’ve read but you need to format it properly. The font’s really difficult to read!
Edit: And the fact that moves, headings and so on are all in all caps and bolded means it’s hard to differentiate between sections of the playbook.
Sub
For what it’s worth there is a vestige magic thing on drivetruh and here is my take on the trope
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_kjttvqX9RouCYa_ziCswJNolaEUTPapIK-jmd6dtLM/edit?usp=docslist_api
Elf Racial Move: How do you spout Lore with CHA?
You are more charming and therefore you know more?
On a 7-9 Bind Vestige, why do you have to succumb to the influence at least once? What stops a Binder from summoning the vestige and binding it and then directly releasing it again afterwards fiction wise?
Basically it’s a representation of the Elves having millennia-long relationships with the Vestiges. Notice that the Move only applies when spouting lore about weird spirits from beyond reality. Most Binders have to consult tomes of lore or their own forbidden knowledge. Elves can just whisper to the spirits and ask “So, about that…”
I would imagine that the 7-9 condition on Bind Vestige is a matter of obligation for the Binder. The Binder has been out-negotiated by the Vestige, and thus must pay it’s price (ie. succumb to it’s Influence) at least once before expelling the Vestige. To do otherwise would be an egregious breach of etiquette.
Pact augmentation: The first option seems way more powerful to me. Getting a +1 to everything that gives you an XP afterwards is really strong. The second and third option are a bit too similar to me. Both are about damage prevention, either a bit each time or all for once.
But anyway. For me i would option 1 a lot of the time and option 3 some time. The +1 armor is not enough to be tempting.
Friends on the other side:
How is this supposed to work in play? What if you roll a 6- and then break the vestiges promise right in the next scene and die? That would suck big time. This really got me confused. also the last bit of text is missing.
Do you gain all vestige powers or do you have to choose between them?
Does Cheval stack with pact augmentation?
Devils Trap; not really a good idea to have moves of 1 level (2-5/6-10) that require each other. It basically removes 1 choice from you when leveling up if you don’T have that move.
Change it to a level 6-10 and everything is fine.
Many Minds, Many Souls: love it!
Kindred Spirits: this is dangerous. If there is a “best” power between all the vestiges it will always be on.
Just personally i would give a player 2 out of the 4 (5?) vestige powers and give advanced moves that allow you to choose extra powers. But that is just me and it needs playtesting before i can say for sure.
Rite of Attunement : great!
Just like a second soul: this kind of effect usually comes at levels 6-10
Iron Seal: cool move but the mention of the +2 armor could maybe come earlier. Just so you don’t have to read to the end of the move before oyu know what you get.
Yo dawg: i don’t like this for some reason. I was sure this would be the “double vestige bind” move. Binding the same vestige twice seems counterintuitive to me.
When you Bind A Vestige you gain access to all of it’s powers, but you may only have 1 Vestige bound at a time.
On Pact Augmentation, I’ll grant you that. Would +1 Forward and 1 Exp work better? Or perhaps just +1 ongoing and drop the exp entirely?
Do you have any ideas for differentiating the two last Pact Augmentation options mechanically and fictionally? The distinction I wanted to draw was that one was a more general protection, and the other was the Vestige intervening personally in a big way.
With Friends on The Other Side I see what you’re talking about. I’ll change the 6- result to read “There’s some fine print to the promise your vestige made, but that’s the least of your concerns. Prepare for a hell of a quest.” or something similar.
The remaining text should read
1 Ongoing until you fulfill any and all obligations you have to Vestiges. This includes boons you’ve promised them because of a 6on a Bind Vestige roll.And yes as written Cheval stacks with Pact Augmentation. I think it’ll be less of a balance issue if I bring Pact Augmentation down to +1 Ongoing instead of +1 Ongoing and 1 exp. Keep in mind that most of the Influences of the Vestiges I’ve written are pretty consequential to fulfill. “Bloody Vengeance For Love Betrayed?” That sounds like an excellent beginning for a new adventure!
Remnant of Power: great! However i would remove the “the vestige gets a new power” thing. It’s kinda weird. Vestiges aren’t always on the same power level right? They should be weakend if you just stole their power.
Nice variation on the Apotheosis move.
Hybrid spirits: see above
Spell binding is really cool, could be a 2-5 move. However it requires a spellcaster somewhere to be used. Still this is so cool it could come earlier.
Exploit vestige is cool but is there a cooler option for the third one? Maybe you can supercharge one of your vestige powers?
John Jessop no. a +2 to stuff extra is A LOT! in this game. This stacks hella good.
In general i really like this class a lot. I haven’t read all the vestiges yet (because formatting) but some of these options are really strong. Like the “everyone laughs” one.
I am not sure how good this plays though. You have to keep quite a few vestiges and all of their options in mind. Some system like in 3.5 might lessen this. Where you gain access to a new vestige 1 at a time. So you learn what options you have slower. Maybe give them a choice of 1 of 3 vestiges at the beginning and then the gain 1 new every level. Otherwise they might take 5 min every time they bind a new vestige. Also the GM doesn’t have to know that many vestiges.
And also as a player i am kinda disapointed i can’t bind multiple vestiges with level. The “choose 1 extra power” move kind of does that but it is weird to me. Also the Binder iwll have a vestige bound 85% of the time? So the “you gain 1 power permanently” move is nearly the same as the “you get an extra power” move.
But i can’t say more without playtesting. This is just my gut feeling. I am also not saying “give them less options” because i think the class is too strong. I just think you can get analysis paralysis easy.
This looks very interesting, but I am finding it really difficult to read.
Here’s the new link, with the font changed to Times New Roman. Some formatting errors may pop up, as Moria Citadel (the previous font) didn’t recognize some capital letters.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97VUsWnBKEtTlI0Qmh2U3NGYjg/edit?usp=sharing
Keep in mind also that this version does not include any of the modifications that I’ve discussed with Tim thus far. But here’s hoping this is easier to read.
THANK YOU!
Thanks, John Jessop! This will help, I’m sure.
Okay. Do you want actual feedback on all the vestige powers? (and influences)
oh, on the gear: why would i choose Leather Armor over the tatoos besides flavor? Especially if they stack with armor.
also, carying around a ceremonial sword and an “real” weapon seems like an excelent choice to me. Sure it requires 1 weight but you give up little. I still like it, just saying that i would always choose the ceremonial sword.
Because the tattoos have the Sinister tag. They’re not just regular ink. They’re seals that look like something out of the Ars Goetia scribed over every inch of your body. The sort of thing that makes normal people (at the very least) mutter darkly about “wicked conjurers” and at the most rustle up a posse for a good-ol-fashioned witch burning.
Well picking the ceremonial sword means that you have a weapon that gives you a good bonus for binding vestiges, but unless you bind a vestige that gives you a weapon, it means your stuck dealing 1d6-1 damage in combat. Not ideal. But I’m glad you think it’s cool.
Oh and I’d love feedback on all the vestiges and their influences. Good, bad, ugly, unbalanced. I want to hear it all. I tried to make each Vestige useful in a few specific types of situation, making the Binder a “toolkit” style class kind of akin to the Druid or Wizard (more limited than the Druid, but more adaptable on the fly than the wizard).
Well 1d6-1 until you pick up another weapon or lend a dagger or something.
st thing, for me it is weird that some vestiges give you a move that you roll for while others just give you stuff. I feel like every vestige should maybe have a move that you roll for.
Merry Murderes
generally okay and something i would pick up.
Bloody Mirth is crazy good though, especially because you can just make enemies laugh while your companions murer them. I think the option to exclude some makes this too good. But with just making things laugh, i am not sure what i would use this for.
Gilded Duke
Golden Gauntlet: you can use the hand without the power to. You loose the damage and forceful tags but that isn’t a lot. This still works but it is weird to me.
Suspicious soul has weird interactions with the influence. You think everyone is a thief and wants your stuff. But then you look them in the eyes and you know they are not traiotrs or thieves. So what do you do then?
Thief that stole:
The Language of the Clouds: does this take the message to everyone who is touched by the wind or just to specific persons you determine?
Shadowed Step: why does attacking something make you visible?
The Brazen Magus
Illusion move: i would remove the 6- result. #1 it reads weird #2 there are a lot of options for the GM here. Restricting it here isn’t a good idea.
I haven’t checked but i think a lot of your moves have fixed 6- results. I get that the Binder is about control and power but not all of their moves hsould have fixed 6- results, it restricts the GM a lot in what they can do.
Armor of arrogance: i don’t get what this does.
The First Mistake
Yay body horror weird transformation trope!
Starveling interacts weird with the influence because there is always something to eat. Be it dirt. So you are never needed to hunt.
Monstrous progenitor:
A few things
#1 i would move the normal creature stat line to the beginning of the move, before the options. It makes the results more clear.
#2 why these specific stat lines? Why not use the Binders stats for ease of use?
#3 The second and third options are “you get this extra cool thing”, the first and third option are “you don’t get a drawback”. That doesn’T mix well together. It works here but i would advice to be careful with such things.
Cancerous Growth: should mention that this damage ignores armor.
The forlorn child is extra creepy (mostly a good thing) but highly specific in its use (not so good). I would maybe change out 1 option out for something that can be used more broadly.
First Sword:
Echo of the slain
+1 forward at most. This is also not needed here. Information gained is useful enough.
Seere
Neither here nor there: the +1 forward to defy danger is not needed. Being able to defy danger through teleporting is strong enough.
A noble soul: the second ability is kinda weirdly placed there. Either remove it or find another place to put it. It looks like an afterthought.
Here’s the revised Binder, based on most of your suggestions. Let me know what you think.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97VUsWnBKEtdjhzTFBRamtXMjQ/edit?usp=sharing
I was also considering what you mentioned regarding giving each Vestige a “Roll+something” Move in addition to Moves which just happen when their trigger is fulfilled.
Off the top of my head, here are some ideas for some of the Vestiges that currently are all “passive” moves. Let me know what you guys think
The Merry Murderess “When you commit a high-profile murder and it comes to light roll +Cha” (This replaces “Innocent even if proven guilty)
On a 10+ The sensationalism and glamor of your crime outweigh the severity of the crime itself. For every one person decrying you as a merciless killer there are two who want to be you, three who want to be with you, and four who want your autograph.
When recruiting hirelings amongst your fans, you always succeed as if you rolled a 10+.Their price is always “Living Up To Your Legend”
On a 7-9 It’s fame and notoriety, rabid fans and accusers in equal measure. When recruiting hirelings amongst your fans, you always succeed as if you rolled a 10+. Their price is always “Living Up To Your Legend”
On a 6- Things get out of hand.
The Gilded Duke
“When you look into someone’s eyes, roll +Wisdom”
On a 10+ You learn what their most valuable and treasured possession is. Ask them two questions about it from the following list:
*For what price will you part with it?
*Is it yours, or did you steal it?
*What makes it special?
*To what lengths would you go to protect it?
On a 7-9 Ask 1
Here’s my implementation of the aforementioned idea:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97VUsWnBKEtOFVMeTFSREtHOGM/edit?usp=sharing