My own hack of a modified Cleric. Looking for any feedback, hearing what is particularly good, critiques, ideas, etc.

My own hack of a modified Cleric. Looking for any feedback, hearing what is particularly good, critiques, ideas, etc.

My own hack of a modified Cleric. Looking for any feedback, hearing what is particularly good, critiques, ideas, etc.

– Removed Vancian Casting System

– Like all of my class hacks, this one removes ability scores (and just uses modifiers)

– Yes this means the HP is fixed. I am up for input on what the number should be fixed at. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b0gqikgvpq7edho/ImprovedClericHack.pdf

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b0gqikgvpq7edho/ImprovedClericHack.pdf

19 thoughts on “My own hack of a modified Cleric. Looking for any feedback, hearing what is particularly good, critiques, ideas, etc.”

  1. This is neat. My first impression is that you won’t get clerics taking a debility on a 7-9 because its too much compared with the other two, I could be wrong though. Likely they will take it to some ability score they think they won’t need soon (CHA) which works.  

    I like Channel Divinity, and it seems pretty solid overall.

    Divine wrath seems too powerful compared with most starting moves. Remove all armor seems too much. Removing 1d8 damage seems crazy powerful as well. I get the impression the cleric could completely negate an encounter with a big villain in one or two casts. 

    Losing the utility of spells is not something I would want. The casting system is only semi-vancian. Maybe you could just make it so that spells are not memorized and you can cast any spell you know (unless of course you choose to lose access to that spell as one of the partial success conditions). 

  2. Spells lists are a straight up deal breaker. I like to have every class be two pages period and the whole point is to have no spell lists.

    The power level consideration might be a problem, but I would rather tackle that head on. 

    Removing armor is really not that strong, although the -1d8 damage might be too much. 

  4. I don’t have much to add beyond what has already been mentioned here. I like the idea of what you’re trying to do but I’m not very convinced that the change makes a whole lot of sense. In my mind, if you are going to remove the utility of the Cleric’s spellcasting, whatever you replace it with should be a very focused design. Cleric doesn’t cast spells? Why you ask? Because he is a monster slayer or a holy assassin or the pure embodiment of a savage god.

    I know you wanted to keep the paper count down to two pages, but you are losing a lot of what makes the Cleric cool by ditching the spell list. I don’t think a general cleric is going to be very attractive to most folks, simply because the choice on which cleric they play has a pretty clear difference in both power level and class capability.

    I really love the first page of your character sheet. It got me very excited to play this cleric. But the second page really hit home just how limited this cleric was compared to his predecessor. My complaints here come back to my thoughts on having a strong theme that the cleric is modeled after.

    I think Storm of Vengeance is kinda broken. It is so powerful that you could kill just about any enemy or overcome almost any threat on a 7-9 or 10+. Few could stand in the way of an F5 acid tornado, meteorite hail, or ice bolt lightening (frozen spears). At the same time on a 6- anything cool you come up with is now applying to your party and in most scenarios this is likely to result in a TPK. The move is either overpowered or too risky to use. Not really sure how you could fix this.

    One thing I notice a lot of is debility removal. From my experience debilities don’t really happen numerous times per session. This class seems geared for debility removal but unless this playbook is in a dark and gritty world where sneezing can result in breaking a rib, I’m not so sure this feature of the class is all that useful or cool.

    I hate to be “that guy” tearing down your ideas and not offering any real solutions. Like I said, I absolutely love the first page. That is fantastic. I just think the second page moves need a bit of theme cohesion to make this playbook sing.

  5. Don’t feel bad for providing input, that is exactly what I want!

    My Thoughts:

    1)  Yes, I agree the second page does need some work as it is certainly weaker than the first page. If you go look at the core Cleric class it’s second page is also incredibly dull. (I think duller because it has more moves that are just things that make previous bonuses bigger).

    2) Storm of vengeance is actually just a core spell (so in core this is stronger because the downsides are weaker). That said, the effect is really strong, and replacing this with something else is not a bad idea.

    3) Debility removal is there because the class has built in debility gaining.  There is also only two advanced moves that deal with debilities. That said, I suspect it feels like more because of the moves that deal with the -1 ongoing, and having both of them does seem like too much.

    So one of those should be removed for sure. (Maybe also just having the one stronger Commune move)

     Thoughts? 

  6. 1) I agree with you there. The Cleric’s second sheet is very dry. The redeeming portion of that playbook was definitely the spell list. This is why I think a more theme/concept focused approach for the second page is key to a spell-less cleric’s success.

    2) I love the heck out of that spell. Unfortunately it really has no form of control. This really sucks because it is dripping with cool. Would it be possible to somehow reword it to create some form of limitation? Maybe you can only use it once per session? I know playbooks don’t normally limit spell usage in that manner though.

    I think the worst part of the spell is that on a failure is specifically hits the party. I’d be afraid to do anything lethal due to the possibility of failure. Even if the spell went awry without specifically targeting the party (so they had a chance to survive) that would be cool. I hate to see this leave the move list =(

    3) I must have missed the part where the class takes on debilities. This makes a lot more sense now. I think Transcendence is a great way to deal with it though. You just keep getting weaker until you reconnect with your deity. I like that approach a lot.

    I love the heck out of Clerics. I hate that they always seem to be weak or boring in most classes. Nobody really wants to just sit behind the party and heal left and right. I thought the spells made the cleric cool in DW because the class finally had some serious usage beyond healing. My biggest fear with a spell-less Cleric is that they won’t feel like an exciting choice when all the playbooks are spread on the table for players to choose from. I really dig what your trying to do ^_^

  8. Sure, all that is possible, but it’s not what the core move set says – you’d have to restrict or alter Turn Undead. There are hints to the implied setting all over the mechanisms of the game – to be teased out and expanded on / ignored / whatever as a group pleases.

  9. I’m with David Guyll on this one. Just about any mythical God of the underworld probably wouldn’t bat an eyelash. This goes double for the various Gods of war. I’d say it is iffy when it comes to the Gods of Death.

  10. For “Storm of Vengeance”, perhaps the move would be better as a “when you get 12+ on Divine Wrath, you may choose to (do the current 10+ or 7-9 results of Storm of Vengeance)”?

  13. 1. Drive -> Spread The Faith. This title doesn’t seem to reflect the actual drive. What about something like “Faith Is My Rock”.

    2. Channel Divinity -> Empower: A spelling error. succesful is spelled “successful”.

    3. Divine Intervention: I think there should be a period after deity and before they. This is a run-on sentence and currently is confusing.

    As It Is

    “takes damage to call on your deity, they intervene with an appropriate manifestation”

    Should Be

    “takes damage to call on your deity. They intervene with an appropriate manifestation”

    4. My Faith Is My Shield: This seems very powerful. Why bother wearing armor at all? Unless it beats 3 of course. Don’t get me wrong, I think this is awesome, I just don’t know if 3 is too high.

    5. Penitent: A space should be added after the comma. I’m also not sure if +1d4 damage needs to be bolded.

    As It Is

    “embrace the pain,you may

    Should Be

    “embrace the pain, you may”

    6. Apotheosis: The wording of this seems wonky. I would consider rewording it. Maybe something like:

    “You are able to establish a one-time connection to your god via extended prayer, a bountiful sacrifice, or other appropriate tenets of your faith. Choose a feature associated with your deity (rending claws, wings of sapphire feathers, an all-seeing third eye, etc…). Your diety bestows this gift upon you as a permanently mark of your faith and devotion.”

    7. Divination: The wording seems a bit off.

    As It Is

    “When you

    “spend time in a quiet place making time to pray to your deity”

    Could Be

    “spend time in a quiet place praying to your deity”

    OR

    “spend time in a quiet place and make time to pray to your deity”

    8. Storm of Damnation: I still argue tha ta 6- is a great setup for a team player kill. Instead of it focusing specifically on you and your allies for the worse, could it be specifically focused to hurt others who don’t deserve to be? Like wiping away a town of innocents or killing your hirelings or utterly destroying your ability to access that dungeon ever again?

    Something catastrophic to the group without the threat of their own demise? Other than that, I still love this move, though believe there should be a limitation to how often it can be used. Perhaps once per session? Otherwise this will be their answer to just about any problem… ever.

    9. Overall Comments: I feel the playbook is very strong. I love several of these moves and think they complement the starting moves well. The only 2-5 move that I feel is a bit weak is Penitent. My issue with it is that you have to be hurt in order to get that +1 forward. I guess this could be cool if the Cleric was battling a lot but nothing about this playbook screams “front line” kind of play style. I see this playbook as more of a “sit back and terrorize/assist from afar”.

    The 6-10 moves are nice and strong. I think you finally have a winner here. This is a Cleric I intend to play and present to my characters. You’ve done a fantastic job on this Anthony Giovannetti. Thank you so much for finally giving us a viable alternative to the Vancian Cleric ^_^

  14. Thanks for the help Marques! I agree with a lot of your thoughts (also special thanks for pointing out the spelling/wording errors). 

    I agree that Storm of Damnation should not lead to party wipes, I am thinking just the GM makes a very hard move and puts the party in a tough spot, but the big problem here is how to word things well. Going to think on the 6- aspect of it still. 

    In terms of limiting it’s use, my thoughts were that the hours long casting time was a big limitation, still not enough? 

    I agree on the weakness of penitent, that is first on the list of moves to replace I think. 

  15. No problem, I’m happy help! I had completely missed that it took hours to cast the spell. That completely fixes my issue with limiting its usage. I agree it hard to really nail down how to handle the 6- when so much should be left open to GM interpretation based on the individual situation. My big concern is that players, more often in Dungeon World I find, have issues with how a GM interprets a situation. They do something, having a good idea in their head what the repercussions of failure would look like, and are willing to accept the risk.

    If the GM comes back with something they hadn’t considered or that they feel is overly harsh, it ends up hampering their fun. With something like Storm of Damnation it seems like the logical conclusion of a failure is that the storms effects come to bear on the party. In many cases I imagine a party wipe is going to be a very logical conclusion. I hate the thought of something so cool being so detrimental to the party.

    I’m all for hard moves presenting serious difficulty and backlash, but with super strong storms I can’t imagine too many possibilities for “you’re caught in the acid tornado” that don’t result in deadly consequences. It is a very tough issue to address =(

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