So, the Bard. I just read Eva Schiffer comment about the Bard being too much of a “support” role and “Arcane Arts”…

26 thoughts on “So, the Bard. I just read Eva Schiffer comment about the Bard being too much of a “support” role and “Arcane Arts”…”

1. Nifty! This is reminding me a lot of a skald like Fafhrd from Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. <3

2. Yeah I’ve been having so much trouble when my players choose to be a Bard.  I just can’t seem to make them as effective and cool as everyone else gets to be.  When things go to crap and the players are fighting for their lives, the Bard seems to always need to rely on the other players to deal with the situation.  

   However, once the Bard reaches level 2 they can take either It Goes To Eleven or Metal Hurlant, making them wonderfully effective and cool in combat.  But Metal Hurlant uses CON, which sort of makes sense but other than that move a Bard has no indication they might need Constitution.  

   It Goes To Eleven is pretty great though.  One of my players used it to make a giant demon attack his ally (another giant demon), and because the ally didn’t see it coming he just got straight up impaled by a giant flaming sword.  One-hit-kill from the Bard.  

3. And that player then later multi-classed into Druid to gain shapeshifting…  It kind of sucks though, to tell a player that basically if their class isn’t fun then they should take moves from other classes.  

4. What stops the Bard from going into Melee or fire his Bow and Arrow? 

   My Bard used his freaking Arcane Art to heal a maddend god and parleyed with him to give me some of his power.

   Don’t underestimate the power of parley and the information you can get out of Bardic Knowledge. When your GM doesn’t give you chances to utilise your parley he is not a fan of your character.

   BTW; Arcane Archer goes totally cool with Bards:

   https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lkBF-ce7D2Ys_4oe6nUaLaKfEbCmvv-blSKIGZDzORs/edit?usp=sharing

5. And then you could still Spout Lore about stuff, giving you usefull intel or Discern the Realities of the room for something usefull in this fight. 

   Just because you don’t get big damage die or cool combat moves doesn’t mean you are ineffective! 

   Cool level 1 support trick: 

   Use Arcane Arts on your primary “tank” to give them +1d4 forwards to damage. When they Defend the next time they can deal their level+1d4 in damage. 

   Also i don’t think it breaks anything when you Arcane Arts yourself. You could shoot your own voice at people with your bow. How cool is that?

   The Bard Player needs to be more creative, the Bard is not lacking in any way. He is the King of Multiclass for Gods sake and can pick up Ritual and Shapeshifting AND a Cleric Spellcasting if he wants to… 

6. rant over…

7. I actually felt like the Bard was a little TOO cool. Shrug.

8. Tim, you raise some good points. However, I’m not sure using Hack & Slash, Volley, Spout Lore, and Discern Realities in combat address Eva’s concerns.  It’s likely that some other characters will be superior in each of those areas.  If you’re feeling stuck in a support position, playing second fiddle is likely going to reinforce those feelings.

   Multiclassing has it’s own problems.  Eva’s original comment noted that she’s actively disinterested in multi-classing for reasons given there. But again, from the perspective of feeling trapped in support, multiclassing might not be terribly compelling; instead of “I’m awesome, and now I’m more awesome,” it could come across as “I’m boring, but I can branch out to another class which I probably should have picked in the first place.”

9. My biggest problem with the original bardic magic was the lack of agency. I feel the basic bardic support magic isn’t commiserate with the other magic using classes in how much control it gives players on partial success and I got pretty darn frustrated when I got 7-9 results and had no input on how things got complicated. 

   By comparison, druids aren’t penalized on 7-9 in shapeshifting (it’s just less effective) and they have a choice in how elemental magic pays off/backfires. Mages get a choice in how they “pay for” the effects of their magic on a 7-9. 

   I like some of the lore related things that bards can do, but they have their limits. You choose specialties for bardic lore and I’ve had the GM tell me I can’t apply that specialty to things I wanted to know about. You can argue about him not being a fan of my character all you want… but what do I do when he rebuffs me, tell him he’s not a fan of my character?

   The multi-class feats are very powerful, but as Alan De Smet says, they mostly make me wonder if I should have just been playing a different class to start with, since the one I chose doesn’t seem to hold anything worth while.

   (Although I clearly need to look at It Goes to Eleven again. I considered it and then decided against, perhaps too hastily. I was very sad that Metal Hurlant was CON based, as I’d love to go all Black Canary on some baddies.)

10. The main issue with Arcane Art in my eyes when used on oneself is that it requires two successful rolls to achieve the effect.  First the Bard must “charge” their weapon, and then successfully attack with it.  If the Bard went with CHA as their highest trait, then the move that actually does something, Hack & Slash, has less of a chance of working.  

11. Or you could go into a position where you don’t need to roll

12. Not too sound snarky or anything, but complaining that the Bard only excel at teamwork is like complaining that the fighter only excels at… Fighting.

13. uh, in one of my first games, the bard was so cool, he not only was the undisputed leader of the party, but also drove the story so hard he managed to turn upside down the entire human civilization of those lands. Arcane Art is nice, but Charming and Open is just raw power. Something no other class could ever do. He eventually became friends and betrayed everyone (and everything). I think being supportive is just a matter of player stile; being proactive means to use what they gave you to achieve what you want, it’s not really a matter of class moves (although I can see how class moves could help or hinder, this is not the case). I’ve seen many supportive fighters and wizards in my games. Heck, I’ve even seen a druid self-relegated to a purely support role. She is a totally aggressive and self-confident person in life, who became totally shy in the game and just followed the action.

    This reminded me of this topic about playbook balance explaining the “fictional effectiveness” vs. “mechanical effectiveness” axis (with a third axis about just being the protagonist for the battlebabe).

    http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=472.0

    While Dungeon World is a bit different (I feel it has way more axis than AW), it helps to think of the bard like the class on the fictional effectiveness extreme of the axis. He just builds the story on his own. Being friends with everyone and knowing things about everything.

14. Kasper Brohus: yes, and both are valid complaints. Three pillars design (where classes are good at either combat, interaction or exploration) is really stupid, and has no place in RPGs.

    That said, Arcane Art is the only thing that needs a change, and it needs to be less mechanics-heavy.

    Jordan Raymond: your changes certainly make it a less reactive class, but I feel they’re not exactly what’s needed: much like the original Arcane Art itself, they’re all mechanics-first (oddly enough, your proposed Arcane Art rewrite is less so, and is actually closer to what I’d replace the stock AA with).

    Also:

    – +2d4 damage as a 2-5 is way too much for a class that very specifically isn’t a damage dealer.

    – ditto +3d4 as a 6-10.
    – +2 forward manages to be both too much (making a roll nearly impossible to fail as long as you’ve got a +3 in your primary) and incredibly boring as an upgrade.

    Out of these moves, I’d say maybe Lively Poem and Lifting Voice would work as the seemingly-mandatory “here’s an unexciting move that makes your starter moves better” advances. The rest all go in the wrong direction (i.e. mechanics-heavy like the original AA, rather than fiction-heavy).

    As a random aside, I’m really not a fan of +damage moves as a whole, since they manage the unholy trifecta of damaging niche protection, being super boring mechanics-first moves and making it harder for the GM to build balanced encounters. IMO, they should never be more than +1d4 and they should have fairly restrictive conditions attached, but that’s probably a conversation for another thread.

15. Alex Norris, I think the moves are overpowered, too. I based them on the original moves (the +damage comes from there; a Bard with AA could get those bonus if you allow “an ally” to be yourself), but the “hold” mechanic is making it even more potent. On the other hand, with the holds, the Bard have to continue to chant to keep them (while maybe making other moves), which is the vibe I like. This Bard is more “get into their heads” during a fight. Here’s an idea : maybe keep the holds but replace the +damage with something more like strike fear in the heart of the enemy. How about this :

    – you anger an opponent on the battlefield. He focus his attention on you (or an ally of your choice?) for now, the GM will tell you how.

    The +1 forwards piling up are bad, you’re right.

    I would not go away from a mechanic-heavy move, though : the Bard already have plenty of mechanic-light moves (mechanic-heavy and fiction-heavy are not opposed; I think War Chant is both). Arcane Arts is the only starting move needing a roll. Advanced moves could add options to War Chant. Ideas?

16. When I wrote War Chant, I pictured this alternate Bard more like a barbarian, chanting to get into the head of his enemies while chopping them down. I just realized that it could just as well be all finesse (maybe like Cyrano de Bergerac), nagging enemies with stories of how they’re dommed to fail (which is more along the lines of the original Bard). I should rewrite to allow both interpertation.

17. I made some modifications and tried to find more evocative names. Still a work in progress, though. I’m not satified with the wording of Chanson de Geste (I’d like the Bard to use both his voice and body language, maybe needing a free hand? In my opinion, the Bard should be able to spend his holds on enemies able to understand mockery ant taunts even if they don’t speak the language). Eva Schiffer, Alex Norris, what is your take?

    —

    Chanson de Geste (Bard starting move, instead of Arcane Arts)

    When you perform loudly while in the thick of battle (maybe a war chant or a poem), increase your damage to d8 and roll +CHA. On a 10+, hold 3. On a 7-9, hold 1. So long as you continue to perform, you may spend hold, 1 for 1, to choose an option to affect those able to understand your tone (if not necessarily your words) :

    – you strengthen the resolve of an ally of your choice. Their mind is shaken of one enchantment. 

    – you strike fear in the heart of the enemy. They hesitate in their next move, maybe missing an opportunity or dealing -1d4 damage, the GM will describe how.

    – you anger an opponent on the battlefield. They focus their attention on you for now, the GM will tell you how.

    If you stop performing, you lose all your holds. 

    You know the Chorus (2-5 Bard move, instead of Healing Song)

    When you choose to strengthen the resolve of an ally with Chanson de Geste, you also give them +1 forward.

    Sold-out Performance (2-5 Bard move, instead of Vicious Cacophony)

    When you choose to anger an opponent on the battlefield with Chanson de Geste, you may anger as many enemies as your level. 

    The Show Must Go On (2-5 Bard move, instead of Eldritch Tones)

    When you perform a Chanson de Geste, you always get +1 hold, even on a 6-. 

    Death and All His Friends (6-10 Bard move, instead of Healing Chorus)

    When you perform a Chanson de Geste, you may also spend a hold and choose this option :

    – you get Death itself to cheer for your side. On the next Last Breath roll, it will offer a bargain on a 6- and a small boon on a 10+ (maybe a hint or a trinket). 

    Highway to Hell (6-10 Bard move, instead of Vicious Blast)

    When you choose to strike fear in the heart of the enemy with Chanson de Geste, you strike true and deep in the heart of the feeble or cowards. While other opponents hesitate, they may retreat, flee or surrender, the GM will describe it.

    Stairway to Heaven (6-10 Bard move, instead of Eldritch Chord)

    Replaces : The Show Must Go On

    When you perform a Chanson de Geste, you always get +1 hold, even on a 6-. On a 12+, you immediately give +1 forward to all the allies hearing you.

18. I like the changes overall, although you may want to be specific about the d8 damage only being while you’re performing Chanson de Geste. The Show Must Go On is a very strong power, since it ensures that a chant chant can’t be interrupted short of silencing the bard. It’ll be up to how the GM uses their hard moves from the 6- to balance that out I guess. I’m not sure of the point of building up hold if you need to take the chanting action to keep chanting. Perhaps clarify whether burning hold counts as “chanting” even when you aren’t burning an action on it?

    The only other thing I’d clarify is in Stairway to Heaven, you might want to make the +1 forward specific (like “on their next attack” or “on their next defense” or something more specific like that). 

    For the record, I’ve never had a problem with playing a support character. I’ve had problems with playing characters who do nothing but passive support. If all you do is stand back and buff other people so they can be awesome while you supervise… it gets a little old. That doesn’t mean I think support characters need to shine in the same arenas, but the bard needs to shine in ways that other people can’t simply override by using the base moves (like parley and spout lore). At a table of five people, everyone wants to be a part of the story, and you can’t assume that either the fighting-action or NPC interaction scenes are exclusively the purview of one class.

19. can i use some of these ideas for a compendium Class i want to make?

20. (And yes, when I play a bard they do pick up a rapier and stab people during combat sometimes.)

21. Tim Franzke : Yes of course!

    Eva Schiffer : I’m not sure I understand all your comments. The way I see Chanson de Geste is that the Bard gives a performance while he is fighting : he recites a poem, chant, nag his opponents in a song, whatever. That lifts at the very least his own spirit : as long as he does that (in the fiction) and whatever the result of the roll, his damage dice increase to d8 (maybe that should be removed, maybe available as an advanced move like the Druid Red of Tooth and Claw move). 

    When he starts his performance, he gets to roll to try to get some holds. As long as he continues his performance (in the fiction), he have those holds to spend as he sees fit. If he stops performing (willingly or unwillingly), he loses all his holds. You do not have to roll again to continue performing or when you want to spend those holds : in the fiction, you never stopped performing, even if you took other actions since the beginning (hacking and slashing, defying danger, whatever). So you basically have the Bard performing while fighting, sometimes using it to specifically lift the spirit of their comrades or anger their enemies. It’s the same with the Shapeshifter Druid move : the Druid can spend hold to make a move associated with their form, but they stay in this form even when they decide to do some other move. So The Show must go on is useful (make sure you get at leats a hold and up to 4) but not that powerful (it actually just a reskin of the Thief Cautious move; Stairway to Heaven is inspired by the Extremely Cautious one).

    About Stairway to Heaven, I prefer it like that. The performance gives a confidence boost to every ally, helping them in whatever they try next. It’s powerful (maybe dialing it back to “+1 forward to an ally of your choice”), but it happens only on a 12+. Compare with Eldritch Chord (doubling an effect on a 7+). But maybe it’s not colorful enough.

22. Ok, that makes a lot more sense. I was thinking about the fictional part of Chanson de Geste all wrong. 🙂

23. Jordan Raymond: there’s no reason whatsoever to increase the Bard’s damage; it’s simply not a class that’s about dealing damage, and eating into other classes’ niche isn’t a good idea. If you want to play a Bard who deals more damage, use one of your many MC moves to grab a +damage move.

    With regards to the rest of the moves:

    Chanson de Geste: the second option doesn’t need elaborating on. Leave it as a fictional effect only and let the GM and players figure out what it means mechanically in play.

    There’s a lot of +1 mechanical moves and not a lot of new fictional options, in general. (Especially glaring with Stairway to Heaven, where +1 forward to everyone just isn’t interesting at all.)

    Sold-out Performance: using your level as a cap for anything is super metagamey and therefore really mechanics-heavy; that said, it’s not like I can think of a better cap. I’m not convinced it’s a particularly interesting move if you take it early on, though.

    Death and All Their Friends: this is an auto-success with no cost, which isn’t very interesting. A more interesting move would be something like “when an ally fails their Last Breath, you can argue their case in front of Death. Death will offer you a bargain; if you take it, they live.”

    Compare the following Shaman move:

    Sin Eater

    When you touch a dying or recently dead creature (less than a day), skin to skin, you may intercede with Death on their behalf. The Lord of the Black Gates will forfeit their soul for now, but demand an appropriate favor or sacrifice in return (this does not have to be something you can accomplish immediately). You may refuse, but if you do so, the next time you take your Last Breath, you automatically miss. Either way, the creature comes back to life, wounds and all.

    Highway to Hell: the wording is super awkward. Compare the following move from the Elf:

    Beautiful and Terrible

    When you reveal the full power of your elven soul to your foes, roll+Cha. On a hit, they recoil from you and cannot look at you directly. On a 10+, the cowardly and wicked among them also flee in terror.

    Consider a similar format.

24. Thanks everyone for the feedback!

25. So the game that I play a bard in ran last night and I wanted to mention, there’s a version of the Bard sheet floating around with the wrong text for It Goes to Eleven (it says the target will attack a random nearby creature rather than one of it’s allies). You might want to keep an eye out for that misprint in your collection of sheets, as that seriously changes the power. It’s why I initially discounted it as not very useful.

26. Said sheet came out of my collection; I had a PDF dated from late 2012 (November?).  The current ones from dungeon-world.com are correct.

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