Has the move “Apotheosis” (cleric) been discussed before?
How does it work ? I can’t imagine a cleric with Thor’s Hammer or Zeus’ lightnings. There must be a limit but which ?
Has the move “Apotheosis” (cleric) been discussed before?
Has the move “Apotheosis” (cleric) been discussed before?
Well Thor’s Hammer isn’t a physical feature, nor is Zeus’ lightning, so that’d be a limit. Otherwise: Why does there have to be a limit? You’re taking on the physical feature of a god after all.
If that’s a problem, remember that the cleric is now a problem in the physical world for any god who doesn’t like the cleric’s god. Also, the cleric will now likely be hit up by the faithful and expected to produce genuine actual world-changing miracles — since they’re their god’s Chosen One and all that.
You’ve got Zeus’s Lightning—which is a bit of a stretch as a feature from the examples given, but let’s run with it. Great! You can volley and do d10 damage right off the bat (but ammo is unlimited, can’t choose that on a 7-9).
Now let’s talk about lightning: it comes with thunder that booms everywhere. Hope you wanted every guard in the castle to know you were coming.
And it’s divine of course. Throwing a bolt of lightning is going to attract the attention of the other gods most likely, especially if you’re close to one of their sanctuaries.
The followers of Zeus too are likely to see this as a sign and bring you their troubles.
In fact, Zeus himself might take note of your actions and get involved. Your his cleric so he’s not going to take them away (without some clear wrongdoing) but he might give you more dangerous tasks, expect you to speak his words, etc.
Note that none of this is punishing the player: they’re awesome and throwing divine lightning around! It’s just portraying the fictional world.
Cross-post! Alfred Rudzki says smart things!
With great power comes great opportunities for GM moves.
When it comes to Thor’s Hammer I immediately think Marvel Comics Thor, and the whole “if he be worthy” bit, and imagine all the lords, mages, and priests great and small who would try to lift the thing, and how they might react when they can’t.
It’s a great opportunity to ask a lot of questions i guess. looks up move
WOW!
This.Move.Is.Awesome.
how have i missed this before?
Alfred Rudzki I also thought about the only physical nature of the divine feature unless I read the example given “an all-seeing third eye”. Third eye, ok, it’s only physical, but all-seeing, it’s obviously magic…
But your ideas are good as well as Sage’s.
– damages are limited to your own capacity
– your divinity is expecting more from you
– you’re attracting other gods’ attention
Well…that’s ok, but it’s getting suddenly very…divine.
If you look at your old Deities & Demigods, a lot of physical features are over the playable fiction. Imagine clerics of Azathoth “an amorphous mass the size of a star”, or Osiris priests, equipped with his scepter (a rod of cancellation with unlimited charges), not speaking of Toth’s one which delivers a death spell at will.
How to deal with the almost unlimited strength of Atlas, etc…
Compared to all other moves of the same level, this one seems almighty. I know DW isn’t about balance, but…
Remember this is a conversation!
Player: “I want to become like Azathoth, the size of a star.”
GM: “Woah, cool! I think that means you’ll leave play though. Maybe we continue to adventure with the other players on the surface of the planet? Or maybe we scale it down and you just become amorphous?”
Player: “I want Osiris’s negation!”
GM: “Hmm, okay, but your mortal frame isn’t quite up to that is it? Cancelling something is defying danger, the danger being that your poor human shell will not be able to stand the power any longer.”
Player: “I want Toth’s death touch!”
GM: “Wow, cool. Your hand will shrivel and die, and such power can’t just be contained to a touch. You’ll be slowly dying too, probably a matter of months at most. You alright with that?”
Yeah right, but why give the possibility to get a god’s feature and be obliged to limit it two minutes later (sorry for my english I hope I made myself clear)
– or you give PC god’s power and it’s unplayable
– or you limit god’s power, and its frustrating
In another way, what was the purpose of creating that move, what did you expect players to do with such power ?
Everything in DW has a downside, so you’re not cheating them by asking them about the downside. Don’t make the Apotheosis unplayable, just make it real. Sometimes real is shit, and so they shouldn’t pick shitty things, right?
Hey, having Azathoth’s mass and being amorphous won’t let you play the game cause that’s not an adventurer — if you want that, awesome, tell me about how the world reacts to the new star in the sky or whatever, but you’ll need to make a new character for us to follow around.
If you limit a god’s power, then awesome: You’re not a god, you’re a mortal with a godly feature. If it’s not limited, or doesn’t have bad stuff, then it’s kind of a super boring feature to the game. When I said earlier not to worry about limiting a god’s feature, I meant that you shouldn’t worry about artificially limiting it out of worry of oh no what will it do to the game!
Find its natural limits and use those honestly. D&D is kind of cool in this respect because none of its gods are Gods, they’re all more like devas or greek gods. They have cool powers but they’re mostly just high level jerks in funny clothes.
If you think saying “You have Toths death touch but you’ll die in a few months” is lame, then don’t do it. Find a new angle: You have Toth’s death touch, so you’re now viewed as Toth-as-man. What do you do that first night in the Inn when a faithful throws herself upon your hand and shrivels up and dies out of reverence?”
And really, it boils down to the usual for DW: everything is context, so no one can ever really make you feel better except players at your table answering these questions for you. We’re happy to try and help though 🙂
The purpose of creating the move was that it seemed really cool. And, as with a lot of DW things, it was something we had played in other systems and not been happy with, so we wanted to present our take on it.
We expect players to change the world with their power, and to be changed by it. When you have an all-seeing eye, how all-seeing is it? See through walls? Into souls? Each of those things comes with downsides and upsides.
Thank’s for your answers guys, I begin to figure how to handle it.
One useful thing to keep in mind is that the cleric is quite likely the only person in the world with this power so people are going to pay attention to it.
And if someone else also has the traits of a god, that seems rife with conflict. Especially if they’re both of the same god!