What does Defend look like in your games? Which of these is closer to how it gets used?

What does Defend look like in your games? Which of these is closer to how it gets used?

What does Defend look like in your games? Which of these is closer to how it gets used?

The GM points to a looming threat… there are noises in the dark, outside the light of the camp fire. Sounds like something creeping towards you, goblins maybe? What do you do?

Version A:

The Cleric is like “I heft my shield, ready my mace, and stand in front of Ovid.” Rolls Defend, gets 3 hold.

The Wizard casts light and rolls to cast a spell. “Oh, crap. A miss.” So the GM makes a hard move, and as the wizard starts casting the spell “twang twang” he’s peppered with arrows! Take d6+3 damage, Wizard!”

But the Cleric’s like “no! I spend 1 hold to redirect the attack to myself and another to halve the damage… so… 6 damage, half that is 3, and my 2 armor brings it down to 1. Did the wizard’s light spell go off, or not?”

Version B

The Wizard casts light and roll to cast a spell. “Oh, crap. A miss.” So the GM makes a hard move, and as the wizard starts casting the spell “twang twang” he’s peppered with arrows! “Take d6+3 damage, Wizard!”

But the Cleric is like “whoa, hold up! I jump in front of the Cleric to protect him! Defend?’ Sure, roll it. 10+, so 3 hold. “I spend 1 hold to redirect the attack to myself, another 1 hold to halve the damage. So that’s… 6 damage, halved for 3… less 2 armor. Only 1 damage. Did the wizard’s light spell go off, or not?”

19 thoughts on “What does Defend look like in your games? Which of these is closer to how it gets used?”

  1. Version A. I had this come up in a game and explained that when I set up a danger with a soft move the player can decide to defend, or any time before a hard move is triggered they could position themselves near another player and defend (planting them near the other character for as long as they have the hold or will to defend) but that they cant just decide who they are defending when damage is being dealt, at that point its to late. They wouldn’t have time to get in a defensive position, their reflexes would not be fast enough to move several feet in the and block the strike.

    The only times I would allow B is if they had previously said they were staying close to the other player, or they they would be defending them and we just never actually triggered the move. Basically it needs to be pre-established in the fiction that they are ready to defend the character even if we have not yet rolled for hold.

  3. Both.

    A and B arise from different player styles. Some players are calculating and look ahead for dangers to be planned against. Others will interrupt you when you describes arrows fired at the wizard to say that they’re jumping in the way, shield held high. Both are valid. The GM is a fan of the character (not necessarily their biggest fan)

    And no, the Light spell doesn’t go off, not for longer that was necessary for the Cleric to see the threat and react anyway. In fact, arguably she bumped the Wizard’s elbow and caused the spell to fail. That’d depend on both inter-player and inter-character dynamics.

  4. My instinct is almost always Version A, but actually when you say it like that I think Version B opens up the move to be more useful and dynamic. So maybe going forwards I’ll be more of both!

  5. Both, but last time Defend was rolled it was from a crackling storm-cold churchbench that was thrown at our Tomb Robbers’ thief and the Paladin threw himself in front. It was epic, but as he failed both got full damage and both rolled last breath (and subsequently failed that). With a success I guess the Paladin would have halved the damage or taken the damage upon himself, and thus everyone might’ve lived.

    In a playtest for a con-game, a system-savvy friend of mine showed how the strength of Defend with his cleric and cha-based thief holding a cliff shelf while climbing and getting attacked by wyverns.

  7. Most of the time I would say A but I am flexible with how it plays out at the table.

    In this example it is difficult for me to choose B because of the specific wording. The GM has already said “he’s peppered with arrows!” and “take damage”. The Cleric hasn’t said anything up to that point. So it feels like they get a free rewind of the space time continuum 🙂 to un-pepper the wizard with arrows and not apply the damage the GM called for.

    Also, the success of the wizards light spell is up to the GM’s prerogative. The rules allow for a 6- to still accomplish what the player set out to do there just should be a hard move from the GM as well. Most GM’s would have the spell fail on a 6- but it is not specifically required.

  8. In fact, I would even use successfully casting the light spell AS the hard move. “oh, somethings not quite right with your light spell. It shines an incredible spotlight on you. oh, no. this couldn’t be easier target practice for the orcs.”

  9. mostly A… but I would allow B as it is a common enough trope… but I would require the player to yell NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! in slow motion the entire time.

  10. Actually the problem I’m having is player will tell me : so I jump in front of Wizard and hack the goblins so that they can’t reach him. Then I say : sure roll h&s. Player : no, I’m trying to Defend him. Me: “err yeah but your narrative clearly tells me your trying to hack them up. Player: yeah but there’s an option allowing me to do damage when I spend a hold and I think I still hit the trigger trying to stand in defense of Wizard. Me: I guess so, then roll Defend (but feeling awkward inside lol)

  11. Addramyr Palinor, that example doesn’t feel awkward to me at all. It seems like a perfect example of the move being triggered.

    I concede that there is some interpretive license: Sometimes we might do H&S, and sometimes we might do Defend, based mostly on the present feeling. But I think that if I was being mindful, I would go with Defend in that case.

    I do think choosing between H&S and Defend lends itself to ambiguity, and that can create mismatched expectations. I appreciate the different fiction they create enough that the ambiguity doesn’t put me off.

    Then again, in my design for Twisted Tunnels, I don’t have a separate “defend” move: If you stand in defense, it’s you getting into the fray with the enemy instead of the person you are defending. I guess I’m happy enough with that.

  12. John at Deep Six Delver Well the thing I don’t like in this scenario I wrote is that it’s not clear which move it triggers. I always need to ask the player “Are you trying to trigger H&S or Defend here”, which I don’t like. I like to have my players focus on the fiction and not TRY to hit a specific move trigger.

    The other thing is that it kinda forces the player to chose the option “deal damage” (since otherwise it doesn’t match with the fiction). It feels awkward.

  13. Addramyr Palinor I few things that I’d do to make the decision:

    1) What kind of a GM move is the player responding to? If you made a soft move, and the player steps in to slash at the baddies, then I think initiating either H&S or Defend are valid. If you’ve made a hard move and the PC wants to intercept it, then Defend is the only move that I’d allow. (And even then, only if it made sense fictionally.)

    2) Assuming it’s in response to a soft move, I’d ask the player what’s more important to them: protecting the wizard, or hurting the goblins?

    If they prioritize hurting the goblins, I’d go with Hack and Slash, noting that it’s possible (likely even) that some of them could past and harass the wizard.

    If they prioritize protecting the wizard, I’d make it clear that they’ll need to spend hold to do that, and with only 1 hold they’ll be making some tough decisions.

    Just because they “jump in and hack at the goblins” doesn’t mean that their primary intent is to harm them. Putting yourself in front of a foe with a swinging weapon is often a great way to make a foe back off, even if all your doing is controlling space and offering a credible threat.

  14. > Just because they “jump in and hack at the goblins” doesn’t mean that their primary intent is to harm them. Putting yourself in front of a foe with a swinging weapon is often a great way to make a foe back off, even if all your doing is controlling space and offering a credible threat.

    Yeah, exactly!

    I would not assume that they have to spend hold for numeric damage just because they said “hack”. Maybe the goblins stand back from the hacking, like Jeremy said. Maybe the hacking fails to leave telling injuries. Maybe they describe it as feinting to confuse the goblins. Or anything.

    We can’t narrate the results before the roll. If anyone slips up and narrates their action in a way that communicates the results they want, that can be helpful for everyone to picture the situation more vividly and to select the move.

    But it’s no more binding in Defend than if they said “I trip the goblin with my whip and then decapitate him with my scimitar” and we triggered H&S for it. Maybe the goblin will get decapitated, but before we roll, all we know is that the character has launched into motion with murderous intent. 🙂

  16. I think in the context of actual play, that’s usually going to already be covered by most of the existing choices.

    But that’s starting to lead into the next poll I had in my mind, so I’ll hold my tongue for now!

  18. In my Earthdawn dungeon world game, I have a player who’s character specializes in defend, with the ability to hold 4 or sometimes even 5! His “defense” damage is more than his back and slash damage!

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