A first draft of a replacement for Interfere.
Oppose
When you attempt to foil a fellow PC’s action, say how you do it and roll +BOND.
10+: You interrupt their action or negate its effects, as per your description.
7-9: They choose 1:
– They still do it, but take -2 to their roll (or -2 forward if not rolling).
– As a 10+, but you leave yourself exposed to their follow-up
– As a 10+, but there’s a consequence of the GM’s choice
6-: Too little, too late. They act unimpeded, in addition to whatever the GM says. Mark XP!
I’d be very reluctant to develop a broad move of “foil a fellow PC’s action” – especially with any result giving either player 100% authorial control of the opposing player’s character. PvP is the time to take it carefully, to make sure each player is still having fun, to ask each player to be clear about their character’s intention, and to let moves develop and get aided/interfered with.
The 10+ result is way too powerful! Whether they triggered a move or not, whether they rolled or despite their roll, you get to tell another player how you stopped them from doing what they want!
From your first option for 7-9, i suspect this may have come up at least in part from one player trying to stop another player from doing something they didn’t have to actually trigger a roll-tested Move to accomplish.
In that case, you could skip the “when you foil a fellow PC’s action” and just have the players say what their characters are doing. let them narrate as normal until a move IS triggered, even if that move is one player creating a danger for the other to defy.
Liza:”Liza is crossing the street.”
Edge:”Huh.. well, i don’t like it!”
GM: “You gonna sit there not liking it, or DO something?”
Edge: “I’m gonna jump in her way and bar her path.”
Liza: “I can walk around you if you just stand there. Are you going to grab me?”
Edge: “If need be!”
Liza: “No way! Liza will dodge around the grab and keep going!”
GM: “Alright…. Liza starts to cross the street, and Edge jumps in front of her, blocking the path. As she starts to pass, he reaches out to grab her.. that’s not quite a hack&slash… i think he’s putting a danger up there…. Liza wants to juke around it.. sounds like Defy Danger + Dex. Fair enough? Edge, presumably you want to roll +Bond to interfere?”
Resolved this way, we have had a bit of dialogue during which each player can state their intention. By the time the test comes up, we have a good picture of where the fiction might reasonably flow next. Liza and Edge BOTH have something on the line – both are rolling a test, assuming Edge interferes, and therefore both might get something out of the exchange, or both might lose big.
Either way, no player should be left with a grudge that they aren’t getting agency in their character’s actions.
I have to agree with Andrew’s assessment here, this move allows one pc to completely negate you 10+ with their own, whereas an interfere just increases the thresholds of success i.e. 12+ 9-10 and 8- become the new indicators. Having the luck or bonds of 1 PC UTTERLY determine the outcome of your action, despite a full or partial success on your part, would be cheating a player big time.
Kinda agree with the above, BUT love what you are trying to do. Maybe this iteration isnt it, but the next might
Yup. As other people have said, I really dislike that one player is able to completely shut down another player character’s action with the 10+ result.
What exactly are you trying to do with this move that you feel is missing from Aid/Interfere?
I’d make one of the options be, they can decide not to do it, and not suffer the -2.
Like this:
Oppose
When you interrupt a fellow PC’s action, say how you to it and roll +BOND.
On a 7+, you disrupt them, they can choose to stop right now, or go ahead anyway at -2 to their roll.
On a 7-9, they can choose 1:
Take -2, but you leave yourself exposed for their follow-up.
Take -2, but there’s a consequence of the GM’s choice.
So player A makes the roll against player B, but B makes the ultimate choice of what goes down. Thus preserving player agency.
So, what am I trying to do here? Fair question.
The standard rules for PvP in DW are… inelegant. The gears grind, and you’ve got to be super-careful about how you parse the fiction and get a little creative with how you apply the moves. And what the hell happens if the fighter takes a swing and the thief’s like “I get the hell out of the way?” H&S vs. DD? With each side Interfering? Just how do you interpret all the possible outcomes? It’s clunky, and the GM is stepping into the narrative all the time to resolve misses and 7-9s. And because the GM controls the spotlight, they are pretty substantially affecting who has the initiate in the conflict. All that stresses being a fan of the characters equally.
Now, all that is partly by design. The game’s premise doesn’t really include serious PvP, so the rules don’t need to support it. But because the rules don’t handle PvP very well, people are hesitant to do it. And GMs are hesitant to introduce it.
I think there’s a lot more potential… stuff you could do in DW if PvP was more elegant. Playing up PC-NPC-PC triangles. Giving PCs artifacts and powers that tempt them down dark roads, seeing what other PCs do about it. Pushing hard at the places the PCs disagree to see how they resolve it. That’s all pretty unappealing when I know that if they start working against each other it’s gonna be a weird rules slog.
I’ve also got beef specifically with Interfere. I think it’s a bad move. First you say how you do it (like any move), then your possible outcomes are:
10+ Impose a -2 penalty on their roll
7-9 As above but you expose yourself to danger, retribution, or cost.
That implies that on a 10+, you don’t expose yourself to danger/retribution/cost, which is weird. Shouldn’t that be determined entirely by the fiction? By what you interfered with and how you did so? Like, if I interfere with your attack on the naga by leaping between the two of you… how could that not expose me to danger?
Also: you impose a -2 on the other player’s roll. But that doesn’t give them the option to stop, and if your goal was to actually stop their action, it’s in the GM’s hands as to whether or not it does. It probably doesn’t, because the GM’s moves don’t really include “nothing happens.” Maybe I get 10+ to Interfere and as a result you miss your Hack and Slash against that naga, but that doesn’t mean I stopped your attack. It means the GM makes a hard move, and that could be bloody anything.
So what I’m going for is something that specifically improves on Interfere, while also making PvP:
– Cleaner to resolve
– Require less constant GM intervention
– Generate interesting fiction
– Have ample opportunities for dialogue and de-escalation
To that end, I’m shooting for a single move that covers any sort of “oh no you don’t!” move elegantly, without leaning too heavily on modifiers. It should be a move worth making. It should leave the important decisions in the hands of the players, and should have a hand in moving the spotlight around.
More thoughts about whether this specific move does all that in a bit…
I’d never really looked critically at Interfere before (I think because I’ve never actually seen it get used), but now that I have, I don’t really like the -2 penalty at all. It’s mechanical rather than narrative, and -X Forward style penalties don’t exist anywhere else in the system–heck, that’s something specifically advised against in the book. There’s also the possibility that a -2 doesn’t even do anything, which goes against the “every roll makes something happen” philosophy.
Maybe as a starting point, strike the penalty entirely and do something of a lift of Apocalypse World’s persuasion move (which I don’t remember the name of):
When you interfere with another PC’s action, Roll +BOND. On a 7-9, choose one and expose yourself to danger, complication or cost; on a 10+, both, and you do not expose yourself.
~If they push ahead with their action, you create a Danger for them to Defy.
~If they give up the ghost, they may mark xp.
They may also simply choose to back down from their action, regardless of what choices you provide.
Thanks for breaking that down Jeremy Strandberg. I see what you mean about there not being rules support for PvP actions. (As you pointed out, that is by design and don’t really think the game needs it, but that’s beside the point here.) I still very much dislike giving one player the ability to completely negate another player’s character’s action however. Giving players the power to say “I rolled a 10+ so you don’t get to do the thing you wanted to do” sounds very unfun to me.
What about doing something similar to how Apocalypse World handles PCs persuading each other? Something like this:
When you interfere with another PCs action, roll +Bond with that character. On a 10+ they mark XP if they don’t follow through with the action and are Defying Danger if they do continue. On a 7-9, choose one or the other.
That puts the choice of continuing the action or not back into the hands of the player attempting the action, but with incentive to not continue. I think that is important, otherwise the game becomes an arms race to have the highest Bond with each other to shut people down.
Great minds, Chris Stone-Bush! 😛
I do have one tiny concern with what we propose, though: you’re weirdly kind of better off if the person interfering with you rolls high than if they roll middling. If they choose the Defy Danger stick on a 7-9, then (presumably) you still have the option to back off, but unlike if they get a 10+, you don’t actually get anything out of it if you do. I’m not really sure how to fix that, at this juncture.
Let’s examine the argument that “shutting down another PCs action is bad.” I’m not convinced it is.
In general, I agree that taking away one player’s agency is bad. I’m also a big believer that “nothing happens” is usually pretty boring. But that’s not really happening here.
If you do X and I actively intervene and try to stop you, that’s not “nothing happens.” That’s “shit just got real.” I just disagreed with your course of action enough to act against it and to risk making a move. If I nail it and I shut your action down, I am probably right there and now we’re gonna have words. I didn’t take away your action; I initiated a conflict.
I think that’s pretty cool, actually.
By having the 10+ result actually work and shut your action down, it forces a pause in the action. Now we re-evaluate. Maybe we talk. Maybe you back down. Or maybe you decide you’re gonna do it again, and force me to oppose you again. Or you do something to get me out of your way. Maybe we come to blows.
Remember, none of this happens in a vacuum. If I’m getting in your face as you try to cross the street, then you crossing the street is something meaningful. At least it is to me. Who’s over there? Why do I care so much? What are you willing to do to get over to the other side of the street?
Like, Edge gets a 10+ to Oppose Lize crossing the street, so Edge is in Lize’s face, blocking her way. She’s been stopped. And now the GM’s like “Yeah, Lize, Edge is like right up in your face, blocking your way. What do you do?” And maybe Lize is like “damn, Edge, okay, okay… didn’t realize it was such a big deal.”
Or maybe she’s crossing the street because she sees her sister’s murderer having tea with the nobleman, the one who Edge has hired everyone to rob, and Lize is willing to blow the whole score just for a shot at revenge. So she’s like “I shoulder past Edge and cross the street, drawing my knife. Imma cut that a-hole.”
Let’s see how this plays out, actually. I’m curious.
Lize didn’t trigger a move; Edge isn’t presenting a danger, he’s just blocking her path. She just said he shoulder’s past him.
GM: Okay, Edge, Lize is shoving past you and reaching for her knife. What do you do?
Edge: No way, she’s not sinking this job! I grab her arm and hold her back, dragging her back into the bar. Oppose?
GM: Yup, roll +BOND.
Edge rolls another 10+.
GM: Lize, you go to shove past Edge and he grabs you starts pulling you back into bar. Dumont is sitting there laughing with Lord Reese, not a care in the world. What do you do?”
Lize: Edge has my right arm like this? I twist him, grab the back of his head with my left hand and using his momentum to smash his face into the door jam. Then I go kill Dumont.
GM: Damn, okay. That sounds like Hack and Slash to me. Roll it.
Edge: Wait, can I try to stop her?
GM: I dunno, that seems pretty surprising to me.
Edge: Really, I sorta expected it. I’ve even got a bond “Lize is a dangerous hot head. I have to keep her in check.”
GM: Lize, what do you think?
Lize: Sure, I think he’d expect me to do something.
GM: Huh, okay. So what do you do?
Edge: Shit, I dunno, I’m not a martial artist. Try and stop her!
GM: Well, you can try to stop her by struggling against her, trying to lock her down. That’d keep her pinned down but would make a commotion. Or you could try let go and avoiding her attack, but then you’d have let her go. Or think of something else. What do you do?
Edge: Dammit. I guess I bear down, try to hold her tight so she can’t get her move off. Oppose?
GM: Yup, roll. (It’s a 7-9.) Lize, make your choice. Hack & Slash at -2, give up the attack but have Edge exposed to your follow-up, or give up and let me pick a consequence.
Lize: Huh. I’ll go with leaving him exposed. So, like he clamps down on my arm and keeps me from doing my move, but he ends up behind me, dragging me back, leaning away from me?
GM: Uh, sure, sounds good. What do you do?
Lize: Smash his nose with the back of my head.
Edge: Can I stop her from–
GM: No, you can’t. You stopped her last action, but left yourself exposed to follow-up.
Edge: Shit.
GM: Roll H&S, Lize.
Lize: 11! Damage?
GM: Well, you’re unarmed, right? So it’s just stun damage. But that’s enough, I think. BAM! Edge, you’re out of it for a moment and take a tumble. Lize, you’re free. Folks are starting to turn and look at the commotion you to have made. There’s actually a little crowd gather around. Dumont doesn’t seem to have noticed, but Lord Reese is looking this way. What do you do?”
Lize Push through the crowd, stride across the street, and stab Dumont in the throat.
GM Okay! You get halfway across the street when Lord Reese makes eye contact with you and see the murder in your eyes. He slaps Dumon’t shoulder, and Dumont turns to see you coming, his handing moving idly to his rapier’s hilt. What do you do?”
And a fight starts. Lize got what she wanted, Edge didn’t. But Lize had to smack Edge around to do so. Edge is going to remember that.
So, yeah… having gone through that, I’m still okay with the idea of an interrupt that shuts a player’s action down. I’m less sure about the 7-9 results. If I’m getting opposed in a PvP fight, choosing to be interrupted but then being exposed to my counter follow-up seems like a no-brainer.
You’re right that stopping another character’s action very likely means your character is right there in front of them. Yes, that does mean something is probably going to happen because your character is now face to face with someone they just pissed off.
What I still don’t like is the fact that as long as the dice keep coming up 10+, your character can continue to prevent someone else’s character from doing something they want to do.
Till the death is always a concern. How adamant are you to continue with your course of action, and how concerned is the one opposing? Will they continue till only one is left standing? Always a big encounter in my groups, and allot of fun.
Your friend has just become a BBEG in your eyes.
You really have to get meta with this question because the underlying argument boils down to “because I rolled a 10+ to oppose, is it okay that your roll no longer matters?”. I have a hard time reconciling this with the goals of Dungeon World being spotlighting and being a fan of the characters, your own and others. The games I play in and GM boil down to PvP or conflicting agendas quite often, and interfere has served just fine, with no players feeling slighted or that the GM was taking sides.
Consider making sure the players understand what is going on, and that you (or whoever is GM) is prepared to dish out consequences as appropriate. If A 7-9’s a H&S against B due to B’s interfere, come up with a compromise they both like and move forward. PvP is a time ot take it slow and sure, not to streamline it with moves counter to the original goals of the system.
TL;DR Creating a move that completely robs another player of their agency when you roll well just cannot be a good thing, interfere works great if the players and GM are willing to talk at the table.
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Alright, I am convinced! Played around a little, came up with a second draft. Available here:
https://plus.google.com/+JeremyStrandberg/posts/NbtH7M5nV2g
Thanks for all the thoughts and feedback.