Unstated moves
Something (maybe) interesting to ponder. Jason Morningstar was working on a custom move and some conversation came out that this kind of thing is a completely valid move;
When you eat the black berries from the tree in the Druid’s Woods you die.
Which led me to think there are actually a ton of moves at play in DW that aren’t written into the game but that reflect the causal reality of the universe. Things like “when you don’t eat for a long time, you die.” or “when you drop an object, it falls”. Things that are only illustrated by custom moves that negate them.
Hmmm.
When you shout curses, anyone nearby can hear you.
When you die in Hell you do not die, but suffer the full physical pain of having done so.
Yup. I think that’s also called “the fiction” 🙂
J. Walton yup. It’s an interesting way to look at it, I think – not so much that the fiction is moves but that moves are the fiction.
There’s a point in restating them sometimes – in my case because I think it is very easy for a GM to look at a situation and search for the right basic move rather than say “you die.”
Totally. I find it useful to think of all moves as ultimately deriving from the fiction. They’re essentially just formalized methods for reminding the players what the fiction is like. Or you can think of it backwards, like Adam Koebel says.
This is what happens when you do this, under these conditions. Just about anything that happens can be expressed as a move.
When you express what happens under these conditions, a move is created.
When you create a move, express what happens when you do this under these conditions.
I’m just going to go out on a limb and say that all a move really does is make something that is normally unpredictable (the fiction) static and predictable under the same conditions.
In my view, these moves are implied in the Damage section: “Likewise having your head chopped off is not HP damage, it’s just you being dead.”
This discussion parallels some confusion I’ve seen about tags like “Messy” and “Forceful” where it’s not immediately apparent to some readers of World games how much more terrifying this 8hp 1d6 damage monster is than that 8hp 1d6 damage monster.
You can clarify poorly but making things more clear is rarely a misstep.
Adam Koebel Is the fiction really unpredictable? I’m not so sure. Sometimes the outcome of moves is less predictable than just following the fiction. IMO, what moves do is standardize the process by which you determine what happens. How they effect the result is a bit more complex, I think.
Perhaps: Moves narrow the possible outcomes to a set of the most likely or interesting things that follow from the fiction.
J. Walton well, it depends on how well you know the other people. When I know the GM, yeah, things can be pretty predictable. Other people, in general, though, are a great source of uncertainty.
J. Walton I think that the fiction can be uncertain, but moves cannot.
“If I attack the Dragon, what will happen?”
Fiction: I don’t know, find out.
Moves: “When you attack the Dragon…”
I think we’re talking about hidden information, to a point. i.e. I can read how a move will work, I can guess at how a person will behave.
Sage LaTorra right, yes! With moves (at least, moves that are in places that players can see) you can guess at what might happen.
The first time a custom move comes out is interesting for everyone, because suddenly you’ve learned what could happen, mechanically, when you do a thing fictionally.
“Oh! I have a move for that!” is a way less mysterious / tense response than the GM just telling you what flows from the fiction at that moment.
when you read a move with a unique, automatic consequence, you are reading a “this is important if you want to play the experienced I designed” sign. Or maybe somebody really wants you to eat berries and die. Dunno.
More seriously, I often thinks they are kind of “warranty seals” (not sure about how to say it in English) of the designed experience. They are here, you can break them and hack deeper, but if you do, you’re on your own.
I think what the basic moves (for example, excepting Defy Danger) are saying is “in this game, reflecting this facet of this genre, when this happens, these are the outcomes” but that custom moves can and should drift that. If the PCs kill Death, maybe there’s a custom move in play that says “When you die, don’t.” and that’s how we play, for now.
Adam Koebel Sure, but most moves are mostly processes, not outcomes, yeah?. “If you eat the berries, you die” is not how most moves work (though some do, sure). You often don’t find out what the possible outcomes are without making the move. And some moves are difficult to parse before you actually start making decisions. Take Workspace for example, the ultimate move-as-process.
Mhmm, that’s true, but the frame the possibilities. They give you an understanding of “what might happen” where as the fiction can give you a guess, but you might not be equipped to fully understand.
Let’s say I want to stab a nobleman. Said nobleman is a vampire, but I don’t know that. So I have to go on what I know and stab him, but the GM says “oh, actually he just laughs in your face and turns into a bat” which I did not expect.
Now, if I know I am triggering a move (when you stab a vampire…) I can choose my actions more readily informed. Though, I suppose that information comes from the fiction (or maybe I made a move to learn he was a vampire).
Anyway, the line between fiction and move? Pretty fuckin’ blurry.
The move in total allows for the mechanic, or dice plus the characters abilities/stats to assist in narrowing the possible array of decisions the GM and players have. The basic premise of a move is 10+ the player gets what they want, 7 – 9 There is a choice presented by the GM to the players or the player gets what they were trying to accomplish but with a cost, and 6- the GM gets to complicate the situation.
That was the original idea. You do something where the outcome is in question and we agree on the idea of using that basic mechanic and modification of that mechanic to determine options for proceeding forward with the narrative.
I fell if something in the fiction only has one possible outcome you could call it a move but it doesn’t trigger a choice. In the example above:
When you eat the black berries from the tree in the Druid’s Woods you die.
isn’t really a well written move or even a move. I think the move is:
You find black berries from a tree in the Druid’s Woods:
You eat the black berries you die
you don’t eat the black berries you live.
I always felt the mechanics were supposed to support the game which was about creating a story so any mechanic which takes away from the game fails the ideal the game was striving for.
It’s an interesting thought though. What actually constitutes a move. What is the definition of a move in the Apocalypse Engine?
A discrete mechanical element with a fictional trigger and fictionally interpreted outcome?
Christopher Sniezak Plenty of moves in the AW engine don’t use the 10+/7-9/6- split. “An arresting skinner” is a classic example. In DW, the most prominent is probably dealing damage. Also, ritual magic. The back of the AW book actually has a pretty decent list of the components that make up a move, at least as far as Vincent originally concieved of them. The 10+7-9/6- thing is in there, but it’s not necessarily a part of most moves. There’s a whole category of “now and done” moves that, say, give you a vehicle or a stat bonus.
I F’ing love new ways of doing moves, in case I hadn’t mentioned it before.
This harkens back to World of Dungeons, yes? Where DW fictionally codified each basic, class and custom move (whether in the 7-9/10+ or straight trigger-result format), WoDu just said; ‘Sure sounds like a move, roll +Stat’.
I think the point of interest is that you are identifying that point in the fiction as a move, whether you roll or no. It is significant to the fiction and interesting to the players at the table. Codifying moves in a well established format just gives the players some familiarity with that ‘point’ of engagement with the fiction.
Yeah, Marshall, I love this stuff too! 🙂
I sort of disagree – I think that world of dungeons is the opposite direction: every move is based on unknown information. You’re just “trying something”.
I guess. But trying something of note in the fiction? Otherwise just say Yes and move on?
Clear statement moves are a great way to declare things that are different about your game’s world.
When you use magic to make someone fall in love, it ends in tragedy for all parties.
When you break an oath you swore, you are stained with the mystical mark of the oathbreaker and shunned by all.
To function, a move simply needs a fictional trigger and a (usually fictional) outcome, or consequence. There can often be other mechanics in between if a particular fictional trigger has numerous fictional outcomes.
(I say usually fictional because some moves have mechanical effects that influence other moves later, like taking +1 forward. Though the better of these moves will have fiction that applies to the mechanical effect.)
This is already a real life move, it’s called an avocado.
When you read an interesting thread but it’s 4 in the friggin’ morning and the thread is a mile long, you sub and hope to find the time to read it later.
Now, here’s an idea: come up with a bunch of move triggers with uncertain results: When you eat the berries of the druid’s grove, when you kiss a fairy, when you whisper your true name into the well outside of town, etc. Then, come up with a bunch of moves, like “you die” or “you are healed of all damage” or “roll +cha, on a 10+ choose two from this list of good things, on a 7-9 one” and so forth, putting each move on an index card. When a player does one of these preset triggers, draw a card, and that’s the move from now on.
And the players know the triggers, and they know the moves on the cards, but obviously they don’t know which does which until they try it out. Neither does the GM!
Ben Wray What about same thing but there’s just a big list of effects that you just choose from? What if players generate the list at the start if the game? It’d be a little mad-lib-y but for a one-shot portal fantasy game…
Adam Koebel “Anyway, the line between fiction and move? Pretty fuckin’ blurry.”
Amen and Amen.
The way I see it is that there are two kinds of moves: Fictional moves and mechanical moves.
Fictional move: When you eat berries you die.
Mechanical move: When you eat berries you take +1
Actually, the way I see it is that there is only one kind of move: The fictional move.
When you eat berries, the sap courses through your veins and invigorates your bilious humors. You suddenly see things faster and react faster. Everything is suddenly faster for you. (That means you take +1)
I can’t remember who said it, Sage or Adam, but it went something like this: (if my memory serves me right) An 18 str Fighter standing next to an 8 str Villager is Fictionally Significant. (OK that’s a paraphrase. I’m getting old).
So looking at the odds of 2d6 I’d say a move that gives you +1 is Fictionally Damn Well Significant.
But it is up to the GM and the players to actually mine that Fictional Significance and buff it to a shine.
Ben Wray You mean like the weapons in AGTFOS by Tom Wham?
Awful Green Things from Outer Space Review – with Tom Vasel
You don’t know what effect a weapon triggers until you try it!
Yup, I remember playing that a lot a decade ago. Should dig it out one of these days.