Has anyone put out anything regarding new moves and spells for taking the character’s up to level 20?
My group is halfway through Chapter 4 of 6 of our campaign and they’re all levels 6 and 7. I have woven their personal backstories into every nook and cranny of this campaign and they don’t want to see their beloved characters go. I am working on the next campaign and decided to create my own moves and spells, but was curious if this had already been done.
By that general level, you should be able to easily qualify for some compendium classes, even if they are compendium classes that you have to make up.
It’s funny you should say that, Chris Rogers. I started writing a rough draft of the 11+ level stuff, and I ended up just writing them like compendium classes anyway. My first, quick Bard and Cleric draft: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ro2xqWePZbfaIFDMHAmkJAz3vcZUvMAPJOkxQtGZPGM/pub
I put together some “Epic” moves a while back, for when characters are above level 10 and want to improve what they can already do.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rm2onFvf1ypWjiZEvQnxV3mXVkMObWNALhundKPxVuU/edit?usp=sharing
Why not simply use the level 10+ options and change class?
What level 10+ options be those?
Once you’ve reached 10th level things change a little. When you have enough XP to go to 11th level instead you choose one of these:
Retire to safety
Take on an apprentice
Change entirely to a new class
If you retire you create a new character to play instead and work with the GM to establish your place in the world. If you take on an apprentice you play a new character (the apprentice) alongside your current character, who stops gaining XP. Changing classes means keeping your ability scores, race, HP, and whatever moves you and the GM agree are core to who your character is. You lose all other class moves, replacing them with the starting moves of your new class.
The assumption when making “epic” level characters is that they are not epic now…this flies in the face of DW. From level 1 every character has it in them to be epic.
Which I think is why the rules are the way they are.
I was using “epic” in the D&D way of “past the highest level available.” I like the idea of being able to keep getting more cool moves even at level 11 or more, especially with the advanced version of basic moves that many of the *World games include.
What about changing to a new class says you stop playing your character?
It’s apparent that there are people who want “post level 10” moves in their games. Arguing that they shouldn’t want them is kind of strange, especially when they more or less already exist in some ways…
You loose SOME moves. You keep the moves that define who you char is and what he does. Huge difference.
Is it urgent? I mean, have you reached level 10 yet?
Why does it matter if it’s urgent?
Alternately,
What if I wanted to run a game that started at level 10?
Because there’s a difference between “I have this need now” and “I think I will have this need in the future”
Why would you want to run a game starting at level 10 btw? ò_O
For a game that encourages hacking and expanding and making your own stuff and changing whatever you want to change as much as Dungeon World does, there really seems to be a weird amount of push back against the idea of moves for level 11 and higher.
When I first read Dungeon World, I really liked it. The only things that were missing, for me, were compendium classes (which I now have lots and lots of) and moves for characters who grew beyond level 10. One of the many kinds of games that I like to play are games where the characters start off strong and get stronger. Dungeon World does this well, and it could only make it more fun to be able to push above level 10. Not because I have to, not because it hurts other people’s fun, but because I like it.
Does that clarify?
Those who are asking about thoughts on and ideas about post level 10 moves think such things would be fun. It is in no way useful to say “No, it wouldn’t, so stop talking about it.” Nor is it friendly to say “But you can use this one option that isn’t really what you want?” once people have said that they don’t really want to use that option.
Agree with Chris here. Obvious differences are obvious.
Jason, the question is, if you play dungeon world like dnd or any other game you will be frustrated.
I never could get all the way through a D&D class without branching into a prestige class of some sort… they are just some really great ways to specialize your character without losing what makes them essential them (mechanically, anyway).
Compendium classes are very similar to me. There aren’t any plain old “Super version of Fighter” type CCs I’ve seen, but there easily could be… I lean towards figuring out what direction the player wants to go, especially since the characters are so deeply ingrained into the world of the game, and building up something around them.
As an example, there is a CC out there called the Juggernaut, who takes big hits and suffers debilities without being stopped. If you wanted to take a destruction-oriented Barbarian and crush through anything, that’s where you go.
But specific to a campaign, maybe you could talk to the players about what direction they want to expand into, and build (or find) some CCs that will get them there.
That’s one way of using them yeah.
The obvious and simple level10+ hack is “keep taking class moves, and compendium class moves as necessary, and adjusting your stats as normal when you level up past 10.” (Fun fact: At level 36 all your stats will be 18! I advise considering paths to godhood at that point.)
An interesting alternative is… Okay, so you’re not interested in retiring or changing your class, so you get an apprentice at level ’11’, and no longer earn XP. Since your main dude doesn’t level anymore, character advancement has to be earned in the fiction rather than by the mechanics, which is totally a by-the-RAW method of gaining new moves and such. What ability are you trying to learn? How are you going about doing that? I mean, breaking past the barriers of what wizards think possible into ‘epic’ spells isn’t something you’re gonna learn by killing kobolds and looting treasure chests full of gold, right?
Bestest advice Ben Wray
Fictional advancement is something that is not often talked about
I’d advice everyone to reread the advancement chapter in the “how to play” part of the book.
Ben Wray has awesome advice. At level 10, you are a world-changer, so think about what that would look like fictionally. You can gain apprentices who grow to be as awesome as you, or you can go change the world. Either way, advancement would become something that only happens because of something that happens in the fiction, and would probably be more about gaining influence and stability in your position than gaining more cool powers.
And if you don’t know how to get to something you want to reach, ask your GM. They will tell you the consequences/requirements and ask of you still want to do it.
My plan is not to add a bunch of superhero moves to my character’s list of powers, but to use the fiction to naturally enhance them. Fiction-first has been my motto back when I was still playing D&D 2.5.
I love the idea of making the 11+ moves a compendium class that the character can take that will focus on a single strength of the original class. i.e. Fighter becomes a Duelist, Tank, or Tactician. Thief becomes an Assassin, Smuggler, or Corrupt Diplomat, etc. This would allow them a pinpoint to gravitate toward which, of course, would be steeped in the fiction.
Thanks for the discussion here, it has given me a lot to think about. I’ll post my drafts for these CC’s as I complete them. I’d love to hear everyone’s comments.
But a level 1 fighter already is an awesome duelist. Those CCs are fine ideas in general but don’t feel like level 11 things when a 1 level Druid can be the – soul of the world reborn
If a level 1 Fighter is already an awesome duelist, imagine how awesome a level 11 Fighter with moves from a Duelist compendium class would be at it… I don’t think anyone’s saying level one characters aren’t good at stuff! There are always places to get stronger!
I do find the irony rather delicious…DW, itself a hack of AW; a community that has adapted it to damn-near everything…and yet level 11+ is just taboo?
That being said….I do think “epic level gaming” is not something DW will be particularly good at. There aren’t enough numbers to crunch, and as far as moves go, I don’t see 11+ doing anything that CCs can’t do. I’m not saying it’s IMPOSSIBLE…just seems like your hacking against the game design instead of with it. Like trying to adapt World of Darkness for comedy: sure, it can be done, but why not just play something else?
Ed Gibbs, I have no intentions on “epic level” anything. I’m talking about natural enhancements to an existing class.
My group’s half-dragon/half-elf sorcerer doesn’t want to hit level “11” and then become a half-dragon/half-sorcerer bard. I’m trying to find fiction-fueled, experience-based advancements for their existing strengths and goals.
Tim Franzke, you’re absolutely correct that a Level 1 Fighter is a great duelist. But imagine a Level 15 duelist that can wield two rapiers and duel two enemies at once. A fighter has spent the past several weeks, months, years (depending on the fiction) would feasibly improve his ability to duel so let’s reward that with an enhanced move or two allowing him some flare for showing it off.
This all makes perfect sense to me.
That’s it exactly Ed Gibbs , all this focus on additional levels and class moves feels to someone like me who burnt out on D&D like trying to make DW more like D&D.
There is nothing wrong with it. But neither is there anything wrong with playing with miniatures, grids, and combat that takes hours to resolve.
There is nothing wrong with it, but its not DW. It doesn’t jive with the rest of the game.
Also, consider what Ben Wray said: eventually every stat maxes out. There would be no difference between your fighter and wizard in their attributes…that seems strange.
As for the taboo of it all. I agree, it is ironic, funny, and strange that this would be a taboo topic. But many people play DW because it is a relief from certain methods of gaming.
To sum up, no one is stopping the 11+ advancement idea. But given that it changes the game (for better or worse is a matter of opinion), creating this new game will take work.
2 things:
Duelling 2 people at once doesn’t sound like a 11+ idea
You actually “can’t” reference level in compendium classes. They have requirements in the fiction.
I feel like I’ve got a puzzle and I’m just showing everyone one piece. I know the puzzle is a picture of a boat, but you’re seeing a single puzzle piece and telling me that it’s not a boat.
In my game with my group, these additions serve to further empower already powerful characters in ways the system can not. Can good ol’ fiction achieve the same effect? Probably. Do I like writing moves and tinkering with the system? Yes, and that is half of the fun for me.
Maybe I’m “playing the game wrong” but I’m having a blast as are my players. Agree to disagree, I suppose.
I think DW can absolutely go 11+. Just keep in mind that at that point, the PCs have surpassed just about anything else that is mortal, so everything they do is world-changing. New religions may be forming around them, and this will probably anger the existing gods.
As far as moves go, I think compendium classes are the way to go, but I would keep them rooted in fiction rather than have them be level based. If there is anything about having epic levels that doesn’t fit with DW, it is because new powers and greater abilities should be a part of the story, regardless of levels.
Since they are so high level, you could have it no longer be possible for them to spend their xp to level up without finding some really good fictional rationale for doing so. Like unearthing an ancient power, seeking out the last great martial arts master, or communing with powers on a different plane. Becoming more powerful after level 10 should be difficult and dangerous.
Dave Tarr, excellent points. The more work I put into this the more I find that I’m just treating the advanced moves, etc. as a compendium class with a class-based requirement. I’ll be using your input as I continue, thanks a lot!
Only XP from end of session move. You learned all you can from failure. Changed end of session requirements. Like absorbing huge power or similar epic things. Too tired for actual examples.